Hardwood floors...the discovery! Now what?

Read the other posts on floors and we have a similar but different issue that could use the collective wisdom of CBN/TBN regulars.
All of our house is hardwood floors, except the kitchen. Good Ole Linoleum there... We started digging (behind the fridge) and under two layers of linoleum, a poor quality sub floor sheet and another layer of (I'm guessing here [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] ) asphalt based tiles was wood planks that match the rest of the house [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] .
Our question is this, how do we get the rest of the kitchen floor multi layer pie up with minimal damage to the wood underneath? To do a 6" x 6" square was quite a chore with the chisel and hammer!
Once that is done we will use the suggestions earlier regarding floor finishing!

Thanks a bunch!
Curtis

Are the asphalt tiles directly on the planks. If they are you have yourself a labor of love. We had the same problem years ago in an old home. Great wood down there somewhere. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] The room was 22 foot by 12 foot and it took us about fifty hours the get to the point that we could sand the floors. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

I did find and I know the dangers that an old fashion blow torch did help a lot. The fumes are very bad news. The mastic that was used would melt and then you could start pulling up the tile. What a mess. I would never do it again. Sometimes age does bring a little wisdom and there are some great new floor products on the market.

I had a similar project in my last house - remove carpet, 1/4" plywood and old tiles to get to the original floor and used the following method:

Cut a grid (at least 12X12 maybe 18X24) down to the last layer of tiles with a circular saw and then use a pry bar or roof ripper (it looks like a spade with jagged teeth and has a pad on the back so that you can lever up the old shingles - or in your case the old flooring.) With the roof ripper and some prybars you should be able to get down to the last layer of linoleum (?sp) in a reasonable amount of time. For the last layer of linoleum try using a wide drywall knife (4 or 5" wide) to pry up the tiles. If you get lucky the glue will have dried out and the tile will come up pretty easily. Once all the tiles are up you'll probably have to get the floor sanded.

Curtis,

I see this all the time and it is a real problem. Often after a great deal of labor to get down to the wood floor you find that the tile was put down to cover water stains and those do not sand out. You need to remember that the old wood floor varnishes were dependent on wax to protect them from water damage. In an old house at least 75% of the kitchen floors we see had a water leak at one time or another that has stained the wood. Another problem is the old tar base mastic that was used. It has to be removed completely or many floor sanders are not willing to put their equipment on it. A flooring sander cost in the neighborhood of $7000 and most of us are kind of picky about what we will sand. One real concern is that some of the older tile material contains asbestos. It is normally the 12x12 tile that is on the bottom layer and is generally the thicker brittle type of tile. Now this is not the most dangerous type of asbestos that tends to powder and go air borne like the old insulation but I would caution against using a saw or sander on it. I would also use a respirator just to be safe.

Now lets say that the old tile has been removed and there does not seem to be any major water stains. When the second layer of tile was put down they put a layer of ¼ inch ply as a subfloor. When they did that it is common for the installer to use a narrow crown stapler or nails that have been driven through the first layer of tile into the hardwood floor. This is usually many staples or nails and each of them has left little rust stains and holes in the wood floor. The holes can be filled and it is 50/50 whether the stains will sand out depending on the length of the fastener used.

Sorry I haven't been to encouraging but with the amount of labor it will take to get down to the wood I wanted you to know all the possibilities. We have sanded floors that were under layers of tile that turned out great, we have sanded more that ended up being a disappointment. If it were my house I would either completely remove the old and put in new wood or lay new wood over the tile. Of course that's what I do so that is easier for me to say.

Good luck

MarkV

Gee... aren't you the happy sort [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Kidding!!
I do appreciate the input. We had talked about putting a layer on top of the existing tile, but the kithen floor is already about an inch higher than the living room [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
I suppose we will just dig in and take our chances.
The tiles we have are 9x9 is there a way other than testing to identify if it has asbestos?

Thanks again... We'll keep ya posted.
Keep the good ideas coming!

Curtis

Curtis,

I am sorry if I sounded to negative. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] Guess it is an occupational hazard on Sunday nights when I have to start thinking about Monday and wood floors again. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

I don't really know of a good home test for the tiles that have asbestos. With the older brittle tiles, the kind that have a definite snap when you break them, I am not to worried about air borne contamination. I am sure OSHA would not agree but I put on a mask and go for it.

If you know you are going to do something to the floor why don't you start in the sink area. That is where we see the most damage and after you clear an area around there you will have a better idea of what the floor condition is like. If it is not good news then you can have at it with out being careful and replace or over lay on top of the original. If it looks good there continue to be careful and hope for the best.

On your top two layers and the subfloor you can be pretty aggressive and the lower level of tile will protect the floor. Kerosene will help remove the mastic on the first level.

MarkV

Well... we tore it all up... Asbestos? what asbestos? [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
Now the wood floor is covered with the tar/felt paper, but we can already see that sections are stained various shades. We do have pro coming in to look at it, but we are also pricing out new floors to go on top of it. ( that is what I a planning!)
Also tore the old paneling down off the wall to discover a lovely pepto pink with many holes in it (This is exactly what we all expected, so we are going to cover with drywall.
Also looking at roof panels to cover the cracks in the plaster ceiling (Boy, this kitchen sounds better and better! [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] )

Another question to toss out there... doing ceiling, walls, and floor... would you start at the top (ie: ceiling first) and work down?, the bottom (ie, floor first) and work up, or no particular order?
Hmm
I'm thinking of starting with the Fridge and getting a drink!!

Thanks
Curtis

Option three sounds the best to me [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

After you finish your drink, you should start at the ceiling if you're putting up sheetrock and then do the walls. Leave the floor for last so that you don't have to be extra careful about not splattering anything onto the floor or spending a lot of time ensuring that your drop cloths are catching all the drops.