Thanks for the help on the floor - lets talk doors

Steve,

Most of the stalls have a door on them that you open to feed the animals and close it when you're done. Your full grown horses may not get a head through there but if you ever have any little ones they can. Alot of times horses will fight or kick back and forth across the stalls. Then you just have a horst that is feeling good on a certain day and is bucking around in the stall. This is where they will slip a leg through somewhere. If those stall fronts are really that cheap you may want to think about those too. It's your decision. I'm just pointing some things out. I have just learned over the years that anything a horse can tear up they will tear up. Anyplace they can get hurt on they will get hurt on. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] You certainly can't put them in a rubber room but the stuff you can do something about is easy to do.

I've never heard of a feed hole incident, but I can certainly see how it could happen. I have heard of a young horse getting its hoof stuck between the bars. I guess his little hoof was just the right size to go in one direction then get stuck. This happened where we used to keep our horses. One guy had to scale the stall wall and sit on the horse's head to keep it from thrashing and someone else had to go and find a big pipe to stick between the bars and bust the weld off. The horse came out of it okay though.

I'm under the opinion that things should be designed to be sturdy, but be able to give if required. I know many people consider this essential for fencing and I think the same is true for stalls. Let's face it, there's not to many stalls or fences out there that are going to hold a horse if he doesn't want to be held.

I don't think our current stall fronts are a problem for our two ol' timers. They've been living in stalls with feed openings all their lives. But I have been looking for an excuse to learn how to weld. Hmmm, perhaps some fancy new stall fronts, welded, powder coated, and with a feed door is just the excuse I was looking for.

I'm under the opinion that things should be designed to be sturdy, but be able to give if required. I know many people consider this essential for fencing and I think the same is true for stalls.

Well like I said to each his own. I think a stall should be bull proof. If you get horses to fighting or a horse that decides to kick the wall you don't want that wall giving. You want it solid. Most stalls are that way. The stalls we have you can keep Belgians in. But everybody has to make their own decisions. I just point out what has been my experiences right or wrong. There's always alot of opinions on how something should be done. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

>If you get horses to fighting or a horse that decides to kick the wall you don't want that wall giving.

I agree a horse kicks shouldn't generally be a problem, although a good squarely landed kick is easily capable of cracking a 2x6 liner.

I've seen a horse that was chained to an eye hook throw its head up and straighten out that 3/8" diameter piece of steel like it was a piece of licorice. I've also seen a 1100# horse drag a 60' steel panel round pen 150 yards before it fell apart around her. All I know is that I have seen the average horse is capable of producing an incredible amount of force, never mind what Belgians can do. From what I've seen I don't think most stalls would stand a chance against a truely motivated and panicked horse. Perhaps in such extreme cases failure is better than entrapment. Just my humble opinion [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

I've learned to appreciate a swinging stall door and the fact that my horses all know the latch is the weakest link if they need emergency freedom. I've re-attached maybe four latches in the two years I've maintained this philosophy. Kinda like when my farrier nags me because my wife's Tenn Walker mare won't tolerate being tied, something always gets broke. I just remind him she'll ground tie just perfect. A horse appreciates a stall for the safety and solitude to allow a few hours of REM sleep and under normal circumstances doesn't want their "bedroom door" open but can relax knowing they can get out if they need to. You'll never read about this theory in "Western Horseman" but it makes sense to me given my understanding of my horses.

You're right that you'll never read about any of that anywhere. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] It goes against all of the research on horses that is for sure. Given the option, in research studies, just about all horses preferred to be outside, even in the rain or cold, rather than kept in a confined area. It's completely against a horses nature to be kept inside or in a confined area. As far as REM sleep goes they have found that horses only require a minute amount. You can read about this in the last few issues of Equus. There has been quite a bit of research on this. They found that horses can get REM sleep under any conditions. They subjected horses to heat, cold, loud noise, no noise, etc. and it didn't make any difference in sleep. A horse will adapt to the surroundings in a very short time.

That is one sweet looking barn. I don't think I'll share the picture with my wife, however. I want her to think I'm doing a good job. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

And I keep reading in the mags where horses sleep as soundly standing up as laying down. Doesn't take much barn time to make you wonder where that idea came from. In my barn on a calm night in the wee hours you'll find exactly one horse, a rotating lookout, standing and semi-asleep and the rest will be belly up and semi-unconscious. That doesn't happen when they're outside, you rarely find more than one or two even laying down?!?

Our two horses always slept lying down in their stalls where we used to board them. After we brought them home a couple years ago it took almost a year before they resumed this practice. Now sometimes we have to go in their stalls and hook a lead rope on and give them a tug or two to get them up. Lazy beasts [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Every horse will adapt to their surroundings. If you force horse to be inside then they will adapt. Over time if they associate the barn with their "safe zone" that is where they will lay down. If you watch horses in the wild they will have a safe place that they go at night as well. Mostly during the day you will only see the younger horses lay down. You rarely, if ever, see the mothers lay down. A stud hardly ever lays down if there are mares around. It also depends on the age of your horses. An older horse will lay down alot. They do this because they are getting or have arthritis or other deg. problems. Getting off their feet doesn't have alot to do with sleep but has to do with some relief.

Once we start isolating horses and take them out of their natural environment they will develop all kinds of un-natural behaviors. It's impossible to make any kind of assumptions about horse behavior from a captivity standpoint. In their natural habitat horses are just as wild as any other animal. It is their remarkable ability to adapt that allows them to survive in our conditions. Horses don't have half the health or any behavior problems in the wild. You don't see colic, founder, etc. You also don't see cribbing, weaving, etc. in the wild either. Horses have adapted to even New York City! But to get an accurate picture of what horses really do and need you have to watch them in the wild to see what they really do not what we've adapted them to.