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I've begun finishing a bit of our basement. Framed the interior walls with 2X4s but I'm thinking I can use 2X2s for some of the little "box-ins" that I'll need to cover various ducts and such. Nothing more than a 4 foot span. Saves me some money and they are easier to work with overhead. Does anyone know how far I can reasonably span with 2X2 framing for a drywall ceiling? As usual, TIA [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Span? Not sure what you mean by span here, but assuming it is the span that the drywall is hanging on, then I would not go more than 2 - 3' without some support. Knots in a 2x2 sometimes don't leave enough straight-grain wood to carry much of a load (important on the tension side).
Also, the joints at the ends of the 2x2's will be very critical. Can't get more than 1 fastener (nail, screw) into the end of a 2x2 without getting closer than 3/4" from an edge. I wouldn't go less than 16" on center, and possibly 12" would be better.
Biggest problem I have with 2x2's is getting some that are straight, and that will stay straight. Also, I would compare the cost real careful before assuming they are cheaper than 2x4's. Ripping 2x2's out of 2x4 material is not real productive as the imbalanced stresses from the wood drying cause a lot of warping as the 2x2's are sawn.
Just thinking it will pay to be cautious.
I have been using steel studs on a lot of inside stuff, you can buy them at menards and others and they just screw together.
I am currently finishing my basement, and the steel studs are the way to go. They are less than half the cost of wood, and they are a piece of cake to install.
I'm not aware of any termites that can chew threw metal -- [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
And don't forget that steel studs are straight and don't split. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Yep they are great, but 1/2 the cost of lumber? Up in the Snowy North they are aboud at par, though it works out cheaper because they are all straight. Sounds like the US government's duty on Canadian softwood lumber is coming out of your hide!
By the way, a couple of tips on steel studs. First, they are a little trickier to install baseboards and so on. Second they are, like 1/8" wider than 2x lumber, which means jambs and the like are a pain. Plus, they have no strength, so you can't hand bookshelves & the like on them.
I did (almost) my whole house with steel studs. The sound better or more solid if you insulate them, even in the interior walls. This adds costs but is a great way of dramatically reducing the chances of fire spread.
DeWalt has a circular saw blade which is the best thing ever for steel studs. It is sort of smooth (no teeth) with kind of radial slots. I would cut the whole bundle of 10 studs in one go with that blade. Its fast, precise and much easier on your wrists than tin snips! The blade is around $10 Canadian
SEARS used to sell a blade like that they called a slicer. Don't see it in the current tool catalog though.
I'm not sure what lumber costs by you, but an 8' wood 2x4 costs about $2.38, but a steel stud at my local Home Depot costs $1.10/each.
I use lumber inside the door framing, but I never thought about the baseboards. How are yours installed? You can't use nails, is there such a thing as finish screws?
If anyone is interested, you can view my progress on my basement project here.
<font color="blue"> f anyone is interested, you can view my progress on my basement project here. </font color>
Looking good, Dave! Reminds me of how much I hate to put up drywall. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
Dave,
They are commonly called "trim screws". Have a standard shank but smaller head. Available at most drywall suppliers and at some of the box stores.
Adjusting for exchange, $1.10 is roughly what a 2x4, steel or wood cost me.
Your project looks great. I added a 'U' channel in my studs because it stiffened the studs and makes everything stronger.
As for attaching trim, etc, there are two ways: you could use trim screws, which have heads the size of thos of fat finishing nails, or run a (eg) 3" strip of 1/2" plywood along the bottom instead of drywall. The pros use the screws.
Okay,
you guys have sparked my curiosity. I think metal studs would be great for the basement that I should be working on right now. Couple of questions though:
1) How might one hang a Chair Rail or any other type of wainscotting?
2) How might one hang a plasma TV? (Not that I have one but someday........) [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
I've thought of a couple more questions.
1) Is there an easy way to separate wiring through these studs? I've been told that you need to separate cable, phone, speaker, electrical wire for distortion etc...
2) Do you guys run your wiring in these guys through conduit?
Thanks. I really like this option.
Wainscotting, chair rails, and so on are a piece of cake. Wainscotting can be glued and tacked, just like you would for a normal wall, and for chair rail you use those trim screws. A trim screw is a screw about the size of a fat finish nail. They have size 0 Robertson (square drive to you yanks who don't want to admit Mr. Robertson of Milton, Ontario developed the best screw) heads.
Even in the US, where Robertson screws are too scarce for your own good they sell these trim screws usually whereever they sell steel studs. You put one or two in to every stud along the chair rail. I would also apply a bead of construction adhesive to the rail.
Now, plasma. First, you shouldn't buy a plasma display: they are too expensive and the image quality is very poor [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] for the money. Wait until October and you'll be able to buy either a Digital Light Processor (DLP) or Liquid Crystal On Silicon (LCOS ) rear projection unit for less than half the cost of plasma. Actually you can buy them now, but the prices are going to plummet over the next couple years. These are actually semiconductors, so they will be really inexpensive. Plus the quality is much, much better than plasma or anything else you've ever seen [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] . And they only weight, like 100 pounds for a 60" set and are only a foot or so deep. If you don't have 16 inches depth in a room for a TV, you don't want a big TV.
But lets say you bought plasma anyway, even though you are going to regret it and you'll think back on old BrianP and how you should have listened to him. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Your choices with steel studs are:
1) Use a toggle bolt or the like, proviided you are very careful that you install it well; or
2) Slip a 2x4 inside the stud to give a place for the screw to 'bite'. This is a good idea for doorframes, except I usually make the doorframe 3" bigger than needed and fram the frame with 2x4s.
Remember for some bizarre reason steel studs are a bit thicker than 2x4s (they are, like 3 5/8 instead of 3 1/2 thick, so door jams & etc, have to be thought out.
The real problem with steel studs with regard supporting things like flat panels is that they are so thin there is little for the screw to bite in to, so screws put out if there is a 'pulling' load. The stud itself is quite strong, especially once drywalled and if you use U channels.
Sheeshe, I write my post and already you've got another....
Wiring is a piece of cake because they come pre punched. You have to buy grommets for the holes unless you use BX or conduit, and at least here, you can use romex cable in non-commerical applications. Check your local code, but there is no reason to require any special treatment: you are far more likely to trip a breaker in a dangerous situation with steel studs than with wood, anyways. Plus they don't burn.
Code doesn't usually talk about low voltage, except you usually can't run low and high voltage together. So, just run the low voltage stuff through other of the prepunched holes. You can probably skip the grommet but I wouldn't. Vertical runs (through the top channels) I drill with a hole saw and use a grommet.
Its a good idea to run telephone, speaker and LAN separately from each other because the speaker and telephone will couple to the higher speed signals. Speakers will even pick up 60Hz unless shielded if the conditions are right (or wrong).
I used plastic electrical boxes with a sort of molded wing. They are much cheaper than the steel boxes for steel studs, obvioudly meet code, and are almost built to order: you stick them on with a few of the pan head screws you use for the studs and you are in business.
My inspector actually congratulated me on the job. It ain't hard.
Another option for the Plasma TV is to use one of these
AVK Rivet nut
Rivet nuts are designed to give a threaded interface to thin sheet metal.
Alright guys this is excellent information. BrianP by the time I actually get around to be able to affording the new TV for the basement I am surely going to find better options. Besides with the cost of finishing my basement it will be a long time. My basement is huge. I'm going to definitely use the metal studs.
Do you guys nail them to the floor just like the wood ones with the powder driven nails?
Mine were put down with a 22-caliber nail gun.
Gatorboy, great photos! Looks like a "let's finish the basement so we get more money when we sell the house" project. Is that 12/2 wiring you are using, being yellow in color? How is your barn coming along? Any new photos? Suggestion on the basement window in the new house. When you have new windows installed in the basement place them a little lower than the sill plate. That way when you decide to finish THAT basement [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] you have room for a drop ceiling or drywall. It's much easier to frame out when it isn't butted right against the sill plate. Again, great photos.
Yes, that is 12-2 wiring. I am putting in 20-amp outlets in this room. The exact purpose of this room has yet to be determined -- Hobby Room, Workshop, Guest Room, Office -- so I figured it wouldn't hurt to have it ready for any purpose. In addition, I have 2 cable outlets, 1 phone and 1 ethernet connection in the room as well.
Well, with the very wet late Fall, and the snow we've been having thus far this winter, my Pole Barn has been pushed back to Springtime.
Dave,
did you just use standard insulation in your application? I usually staple the stuff in place when doing standard wood framing. What do you use for metal. I loved your basement pictures and think this is clearly the better (and yes cheaper is always good too) way to do my basement. Sorry for all the silly questions I just never thought I would be going this route so I didn't do any homework on the subject. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]
Owens Corning makes a special size for steel stud walls. It is just a tad wider than the insulation for wood studs.
Jerry
I am not a pro but I used metal studs through out my home.
Worked great and I love the final results.
In my area they are about the same maybe a little cheaper than wood but,
I can carry ten 12' metal studs by myself.
I use a chop saw and can cut a stack of them to length in one go.
Use a screw gun to lock it all togheter so its supper fast to slam up a wall.
They don't burn and termites are not a problem.
However, as mentioned they are not as strong prior to drywall installation. You can bend them.
But two gauges are available. Most home centers only have the 25 gauge which is supper weak until you get the rock up. It then becomes pretty solid.
I started with 25 gauge and then quickly shifted to 20 gauge. Much stronger and all the problems with mounting cabinets etc.. go away.
For the base board I predrilled and then used screws. Works well but more work that a nailer used in wood construction.
EMT conduit is a great way to do electrical in steel framing but cost more in time and conduit.
Also check with your supplier on the width issue. You can buy 20 or 25 gauge studs that in combination with 1/2" rock will give you a standard wall thickness. If you use 5/8 rock then a little trim creativity is needed aroud the doors.
Also watch the wall height. They only sell 25 gauge in 12' or smaller lengths for a reason becasue the walls are not stable at taller heights. As I recall 20 gauge is good to 14' or 16' which should be good enough for most residential uses. They make heavier studs for taller walls.
http://www.unimast.com/
my two cents....
Fred
Well I spent the morning boxing in duct work and plumbing with 2X2s. Mixed results as some of you have mentioned. They are easier/lighter to work with and most of my work has been with lengths less than a couple of feet. They do split more than 2X4s and I had to replace a couple. In the end, I think all will be fine and I saved a few trees and a few bucks. I'll stick with 2X4s for the main wall framing and such. No experience with metal though it sounds pretty straightforward.
Dave, your pictures are impressive. Nice work [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Rob,
I never used steel studs before myself. I must say, they are alot easier to work with -- you might want to give it a try, just for the heck of it. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I finished with putting up all my drywall this morning. My next stage is taping.
I used to use tapcon screws, however anything that makes a hole in concrete is a little hazardous when you've got radiant floor heating, like I have.
Now, I just use polyurethane construction adhesive. I first used the stuff on a temporary base for temporary kitchen cabinets. I had to use a sledge hammer and a chisle to get the 2x4s off. Some concrete even came with them.
So, I experimented with steel tuds an they hold real good. Just make sure they are cleaned, because some have a thin coat of oil on them. Clean the floor and dampen the floor before applying. If it makes you feel better, put a pin (nail or screw) into the floor on either side of door openings.
BrianP,
you mentioned something about U channels. What exactly are you refering to here? Thanks.
If you look at the metal studs you will notice a rectanglar hole punched in the middle of the stud at about 16", 48", and 72" for an 8 foot stud. In addition there are a few round holes punched, these hold gromets for the electricals.
The U channel snaps into these rectangual holes. U channel is fairly heavy guage metal with a U cross section that is about 1.25" by .5". and sold in 10 foot lengths. You slide the channel through a set of thos holes (at least the 48" high ones), holding the channel at an angle. Once its in place, push it down so it kind of press fits into place.
This does a few things: it lines up all the metal studs, it reduces the sound transmission, and it makes the wall feel and sound stronger. It you want to go all the way, put U channels in all the square holes, but the middle one makes the most difference.
I also filled my walls with mineral wool fire and acoustic insulation which improves the sense of strength as well.
BrianP
BrianP,
Did you use the 20 or the 25 guage? I can get either out here in 3.5 inch or 3 5/8 inch. I'm going to purchase my studs next week. The 20 guage is clearly much cheaper but that's not really a huge factor. I just want to do it right. My basement walls are all going to be 9 footers. Last question, I think [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img], did you get a saw blade for your chop saw/skill saw or do you just use snips? Thanks for all your help.
I don't know the gage I used, I didn't have a choice. I would probably use the thickest stuff, just in case I wanted to hang something on the wall. Again, if I had a choice, I would probably use 3 1/2" material because all door jambs, etc., are sized for 2 x 4s, meaning 1 1/2 x 3 1/2, not 3 5/8. Believe me, dealing with the extra 1/8" makes a difference, and its a pain.
You must have good suppliers in your neck of the woods to have such a choice.
In terms of cutting, I didn't have much success with snips. Its hard to cut nice and square, and my arm got really sore really quickly. I looked at a cut off saw, then I spotted the Dewalt sheet metal blade I (think I) mentioned above. I figured what the heck, $10 (Canadian, US $6) is worth a try. I stuck it in my circular saw and it works like a dream. I found it worked best when I cut a bundle of 10 studs all at once. Lots of noise, etc., but a nice clean cut, and fast as well.
I would use that instead of an abrasive chop saw any day. I'll have to find another excuse to get the chop saw. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]
This might be a dumb question, but can these steel studs be used structurally, say in a small shed or outbuilding? I've never seen them and they sound pretty neat.
you can buy them that are rated for load bearing applications but I have never used them
You can build a complete structure, including trussess, rafters, etc., in steel. Finding suppliers is a build of a challenge, however.
I've never used steel studs for structural applications, but have read a fair bit about it. You tend to use special techniques and tools like small drill presses with magnetic bases, etc., so it doesn't sound like DYI territory.
I don't know where you live but I just priced out some studs for a tack room I'm building in the barn.
Steel studs $3.00
wood studs $2.75
prices seem to bounce around some days wood is cheaper other days steel. I'll use whatever is cheap on the day I fanlly need to buy them.
Hey GatorDude... NICE WORK!!!
Just finished my basement and started using 2X2 for the same thing you mentioned.
2 problems developed.
1. nailer split 2X2
2. drywall screws split 2X2
Building with steel is very much DIY territory.
Rhino
That's just one I happened to have bookmarked for a possible future project. Do a search on steel framing and you'll find plenty of others like that.