-
need some quick info
Does anyone have Cedar siding on their house? Vickie and I are using Cedar board and baton siding. I want a natural look, but also don't want it to look bad. I know I can use a water seal product, ie: Thomsons, Olympic, ect. I need to know if it will be needed yearly, or just let the Cedar age naturally. I would like a silver gray colour, but don't want to stain it silvery if I can help it. The rafter ends are southern yellow pine and the sheating is spruce pine and I know I am going to stain it the same colour as the new cedar. Anyone have any imput or suggestions?
-
Re: need some quick info
My farm in Alberta (which I sold when they transferred me to Michigan) had cedar siding. Unfortunately, the guys who built it (local cedar home construction outfit) used that ugly orangy cedar stain.
After that wore off enough (12 years), I let it sit to see what the weathering would be like .... but it was quite uneven ... so I cheated. I went with a cedar grey stain.
The only problem with letting it age naturally is what you mentioned ... only the siding is cedar, the rafters and the window sills and door jambs will likely not be ... so you'll have some that MUST be stained or painted. (that's the reason I opted to re-stain).
Fortunately, the garage was constructed at the same time as the house and with the same siding, so it was easy to see whether I would like the results, [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
pete
-
Re: need some quick info
You can wish for just about anything but the choices come down to about these three: 1. natural aging, often uneven and not everyone appreciates the "look" , 2. very high maint trying to keep that "pretty wood" look, and 3. an opague stain that gives a nice uniform appearance but pretty much hides the look of the wood, except for the texture which shows through.
Choose wisely, grasshopper.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Several years ago, my brother took me around town showing my some cedar sided homes in Anchorage; most beautiful ones I ever saw. The cedar generally looked bright, natural, and new, but with some definite differences that he said were determined by whether they had one, two, or three coats of "Behr Rawhide". I don't know whether the stuff still exists or not, but he did say something about refinishing every 2 or 3 years.
-
Re: need some quick info
I have tried several products on the clear 8" cedar siding on our cabin at Lake Tahoe. The south exposure takes a beating from the hot sun that nails it in the summer. The high altitude really seems to dry the stuff quickly and oxidize the stain. I have been pretty happy with Penofin products, I now use a less pigmented choice since the wood is pretty well coated. I need to restain it every 4 years or so but at this point in my life, I still enjoy doing it. The north exposure has been done twice and looks good as new.
-
Re: need some quick info
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
"Behr Rawhide".
[/ QUOTE ]
Bird:
I can remember that product too. Looked really nice but was high maintenance and if not kept up became shabby looking. The wood seemed to glow when it was applied.
Our previous house had cedar siding. We stained it a very dark red which seemed to last well.
Now that I'm much older I think of metal or vinil siding from the maintenance aspect
Egon
-
Re: need some quick info
Yep, Egon, I'm at an age where about the first thing I consider when I buy anything is how much maintenance it will require. Vinyl siding may not be as pretty, but I'd go with it every time before cedar, or anything else that had to be painted. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
The house we live in now has vinyl siding, and I swore I'd never have it again. The sun has lightened the south and west side and the lawnmower has thrown something thru it at different places. I know others who have vinyl and love it, I guess that is why there is different material made. The biggest reason for the Cedar is this little woman I have lived with for 32 years, what she wants at this point in my life is the most important consideration. Staining every 4-5 years till I can't and then paying someone to do it isn't a deal breaker.
Someone at her job suggested Behr brand, they have had good luck with it. I guess I will stain all of it, but it sure would have been nice not to have had to. Advice from you folks was why I asked afterall, and I'd be a fool not to take some after I asked. I'll have to agree that the uneven look of the natural process was a big concern as I've seen several that were not to attractive with the blotchy look of the aging process. As I have 3 different species of wood that would all weather at different degrees, I believe I'll take the advice to bite the bullet and stain all.
You know the computer age sure does make it easier to get advice from a bunch of different sources, these forums are a gold mine of knowledge. I appreciate the help folks and will always try to give any help to others, when possible,Later, Nat
-
Re: need some quick info
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
The sun has lightened the south and west side
[/ QUOTE ]
Nat, vinyl siding does fade some in the Texas heat, but most of what I see is light colored and seems to stay relatively evenly faded, at least. But when I was doing gas leakage surveys in Pennsylvania, I noticed a number of otherwise nice looking homes with darker colors, such as blue, that were drastically different; new looking on the east sides and drastically faded on the west side, so I can certainly understand your position.
I also understand about what the little woman wants, since I'm about 2 months shy of 40 years of being married to mine, so whatever she wants us to live in or with suits me. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Nat, please, please never let me get to that point in my life where vinyl siding is a consideration. [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I built a home back in Maine and some folks were going with it. At any point where folks could come in contact with it like under the front door threshold, it was always shattered, I assume from the cold. I am currently looking into cement based products for my home. There are lots of nice products out there but the look and feel of vinyl just does not do it for me.
-
Re: need some quick info
As there are widely varying qualities of paint with vastly different "lasting" power, there is a wide range of vinyl siding product. Some is quite resistant to fade and has good cold weather flex without shattering. Thicknesses vary considerably and some are fiber reinforced. My vinyl guy recommended not getting the fiber reinforced but investing is good quality material that is thicker. Ask me again in 15 years.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Some is quite resistant to fade and has good cold weather flex without shattering.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I thought, too, but couldn't say for sure. I recall one of my brothers telling me about his first experience with installing vinyl siding (don't remember whether it was while he was still in Anchorage, AK, or when he was in Ellensburg, WA), and he said he tried hitting a piece of it with a hammer when it was way below freezing (can't remember, either, just how cold he said it was), and it amazed him at the time that it didn't break.
So when he built his own home in Texas, he used white vinyl siding. And right now, I'm living in a 1997 mobile home with cream colored or beige vinyl siding and see no signs of deterioration or fading yet. Of course, if I had to replace a piece of it, I might find that it's faded, but uniformly so.
-
Re: need some quick info
Bird, Another good idea is the styrofoam insulation that is molded to fit behind vinyl siding. It is not of uniform thickness because it form fits the particular patern of your siding but gives an average R-5. This, of course benefits your heating and cooling efforts but wait... There is more! It supports the vinyl so that when the wall is leaned on or hit it cushions the vinyl and supports it from the back and reduces the flex. This greatly reduces cracking of the vinyl.
I didn't really need the R-value but wanted the increased mechanical toughness so I used it wherever the vinyl came down where a person would hit it. For example: on our back porch the vinyl comes down to the slab in between the windows where it would have been a nightnare to do brick (and have it flex and crack maybe). Here it is likely that chairs, people, etc. will hit the vinyl. Boy oh boy, how you can really feel the difference.
When you press in on the vinyl, backed with the form fitting styrofoam insulation, it feels really solid, especially when compared to the vinyl without backing.
Something not mentioned previously: Some vinyl manufacturers include additives to retard the effects of UV radiation to a greater extent than others.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Pat, I agree that the styrofoam is a very good idea. If I'm not mistaken, it serves another purpose as well. I've been told that one of the mistakes novices make when putting vinyl siding on a solid surface is that they drive the nails in too tight. As with many materials, the vinyl expands and contracts a little bit with temperture changes and you want it to slide in the slots under the nail heads instead of buckling. I've heard (no personal experience) that the styrofoam helps in that regard as well as providing insulation and a solid feel.
-
Re: need some quick info
Bird, I can attest to the solid feel, and am confident of the insulation factor, but I don't get the part about making the fasteners looser for unskilled installers.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
vinyl siding is "hung" and not nailed tight like a board. The vinyl siding moves a lot as it expands and contracts throughout the different weather patterns..
-
Re: need some quick info
I think LarryRB explained it maybe better than I did. If you drive the nails all the way in tight, as you would with a board, you'll have buckling of the vinyl siding. So you drive the nails almost all the way in, but not so tight that the vinyl siding cannot slip back and forth under the nail head. At one time, we considered buying a new home in Port Aransas, and since everything rust so bad on Mustang Island, the builder used all stainless steel nails for the vinyl siding. I think with the strofoam behind the siding, you still don't want to overdo it driving the nails in, but I think you can get them fairly snug and the styrofoam will still let the vinyl slip a bit when necessary.
-
Re: need some quick info
best way to explain is drive the nail through the slot in the vinyl siding until a credit card can fit between siding and back of nail head, At this point, it is done correctly
-
Re: need some quick info
LarryRB, Tis true. Vinyl has a fairly large coeficient of linear expansion with changes in temp. My siding came with color coded spacers marked with different temperatures. The spacers give the correct spacing for the temp indicated on them. Takes the guess work out of an installation.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
I think we're all on the same page now. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Can you paint vinyl siding and have satisfactory results? I know the vinyl windows have issues which I now understand that fiberglass windows are getting popular in custom homes.
-
Re: need some quick info
http://www.askthebuilder.com/427_Pai...l_Siding.shtml
is one of a jillion hits doing a google on "paint vinyl siding"
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Very good Pat, thanks for the link. You can paint it but I see it might really be better not to, especially for south or south west exposures where the hot sun can take dark colors on vinyl and do undesireable things. My interst primarily is in painitng vinyl windows.
-
Re: need some quick info
RaT, If you do it right procedure wise and materials wise you can get a good lasting coat on vinyl but given your latitude/climate and the color you pick, vinyl might distort if you went too dark from the heat buildup.
I went with a high quality vinyl window (not the stocked variety at the big box stores.) They are and will remain white. I saved well over $30,000 compared to the Pella and Anderson quotes and got good performance specs and warranty.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Thats my situation now Pat. I am debating on Anderson, I'm pretty much done with Pella after the last job we did using their windows and doors. I like Anderson but it all depends on the price. I did go to the website for your windows and have it marked. I am going with a color other then white and need to paint. My climate is mild enough with a few days over 100 degrees and almost no days below 32 degrees.
-
Re: need some quick info
RaT, My GC claims that some of the worst glaring qualilty errors he has seen in windows and doors have come from Pella and Andeerson. This is not to say they are all bad just that they ship junk once in a while like everyone else. Window technology is only so good. A lot of what you pay for in Anderson and Pella is bragging rights at the country club and a HUGE advertising budget. What they spend on advertising doesn't inprove your engineering specs.
You can buy windows from LESS ADVERTISED makers whose quality and INDEPENDENTLY CONFIRMED performance specs are as good as either Anderson or Pella at their best. I'm talking fairly standard windows not some architectural monstrosity.
Windows can only be made so good before you run into diminishing returns and pay "Space Shuttle" prices for improvements that are difficult or imposible to notice in a residence. THe cost goes up quickly once you pass a certain level of state of the art/practice and the windows are not likely to last long enough for the marginal performance improvement to pay for itself in energy savings, i.e. there is no break even time and you are $ ahead to not spend at that level.
Having once been an energy conservationist as a full time engineering job I had to become conversant in the specsmanship of architectural components including windows. I had to sell retrofit and new construction project requirementsto skeptical engineers based on net present value calculations that proved there was a payback within the installed lifetime of the component. Unless you throw in some EXTRA points for name recognition, Pella and Anderson are overpriced compared to product with less advertising budget.
I have no personal experience with the "CHEAPIE" product sold under the BIG names at Lowe's or other big box stores. My comments are restricted to the high end product.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Pat,
Would you mind sharing a few of your recommended manufacturer names, for windows? Or PM me with those?
I am actually looking for aluminum windows rather than vinyl. My architect is a green designer, strongly opinionated rearding vinyl toxicity. Mrs. Slobuds is of the same opinion. So ... I'm with the program as you can well imagine!
Anyway, I like your idea of buying value without buying the name. It just needs to be wood or aluminum.
The architect has fired a warning shot about windows being a or 'the' major expenditure for our new house. So if you could tell tales and name names, I would appreciate the input.
Thanks,
Martin
-
Re: need some quick info
"The architect has fired a warning shot about windows being a or 'the' major expenditure for our new house"
Hard to imagine that. Is he familiar with the price of labor, plywood, concrete, rebar etc.? Aluminum windows tend to also be the cheapest available even though there are high quality aluminum ones.
Here is a quote from Pats project.
"I bought mostly Simonton windows Contractor series with Low E2 and argon. Good price performance ratio. "
-
Re: need some quick info
Martin, I'm sorry but I am a total failure in this instance as I have no personal experience with aluminum windows in recent decades. Likewise wood, as I have not researched wood or wood clad with aluminum or anything but vinyl. I did get a Pella wood window quote and it was in excess of $30,000 more expensive than what I selected (but was not better in performance specs.) With vinyl windows there are less advertised makes with excellent quality and performance. I suspect this to be the case with windows of other materials as well so although I can't make a recommendation there I suspect a thorough search will pay off.
Is the wood or aluminuim some sort of GREEN thing? I don't recommend wood window frames due to maint and deterioration but do recommend wood clad with F/G or aluminum. Have you researched the source energy consumption of aluminum, very energy intensive. Fiberglass industry is poluting and dependent on foreign oil.
Our newest car is a Toyota Prius, and we selected vinyl windows for our new house. It isn't exactly a Diet Coke and a Twinkie but there is some sort of trade off ballance.
In general I suggest you study before you buy. You need to know and understand tyjr figures of merit so you will understand the difference between center pane and full window average U-values. Manufacturers play games with the figures of merit by which you need to judge their product. Many self test, some are independently verified. You need to understand infiltration, solar heat gain coeficient (SHGC), visual transmitance (% of visual spectrum passing through the window), the neccessity for thermal breaks, and so forth.
The best window for the job, in say, a living room for example may not be the same on the south side vs the north. There is an interplay between SHGC and VT. If you are after some passive solar gain with a decent U-val you might settle for 0.40 or thereabouts VT for the south side and opt for a higher SHGC and a higher VT for the north side while still wanting a good U-value. There is little or no solar gain on the north side of the house (in northern hemisphere) and increasing VT will help with daylighting.
On the south side you may want to pass short wave IR and block long wave IR to increase solar gain. On the north side blocking long wave IR is a concern. Even though there is little or no solar gain to be had on the north side, in summer the world out there on the north side of the house still gets pretty warm and can send in quite a lot of long wave IR. In winter yo lose a lot of heat out the winds in the form of long wave IR. The radiant environment is a large portion of perceived comfort.
There are good web sites for info on windows. NREL is a good source (national renewable energy lab)
A google on "energy star window nrel" produced a pletora of hits such as:
http://www.jeld-wen.com/resources/other_links.cfm
There is a window selection tool at:
http://www.efficientwindows.org/links.cfm
I have seen this tool on a NREL site too. Try it out.
Of course you'll have to give the tool more info than you have in your bio, like a nearby big city so they know your location.
If your architect hasn't been certified through courses in energy efficient architecture from the AIA (Architectural institute of America, like AMA for doctors) he might not be as savy as you may later wish he were. If you really want to GET INTO THIS and our architect is a tad light in this topic, hire an energy efficiency consulting architect to consult on energy efficiency issues, not the general "look and feel" of the house. Earlier is better. Like doctors, woh can't be specialists in all branches of medicine and who use consulting specialists, think of most residential architects as general practitioners.
Oh by the way. Many designers or architects may cough up blood if you say anything about different windows on the south and north sides but in many instances you can't see windows on both sides of the house at the same time. Even in the same room you often have to turn around to see windows on the opposite side and that elliminates a true side by side comparison and reduces any difference in looks.
Make sure your overhangs are "ENGINEERED" for the geometry of your window positions/sizes, your latitude, and the amount, if any, of desired direct solar gain. Often times proportions of some important details (overhangs in relation to vertical window extent and placement and such) are essentially ignored and built for looks even if the "LOOK" you are after was developed for and had success in a substantially different latitude and or climate than yours, whatever it might be (another fill out your bio jab.) I have dealt with architects as coworkers rather than just as a client and I can assure you there is quite a variance in talent as regards the myriad aspects of energy efficiency and green building.
A separate area of interest: Don't forget IAQ (Indoor Air Quality) when you are going for a "tight" envelope.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
"Have you researched the source energy consumption of aluminum, very energy intensive. Fiberglass industry is poluting and dependent on foreign oil. "
Very true Pat. Aluminum reflects this in the price too. There are so many choices in windows from the well known brand names like Marvin, Pella, Anderson, Milgard etc that offer a variety of materials to choose from and as you have commented, the price for these can be considerable. I have tried many vinyl windows and have yet to be really impressed. I may be expecting to much. Home Depot carries Jeldwen in our area and I was underwhelmed at least with the line they had on display.
-
Re: need some quick info
Thanks Pat.
Our architect is LEED certified professional. I knew squat about that until we hooked up with her. Turns out to be a pretty big deal. I've ended up with high confidence in their opinions and abilities, without myself becoming an architect, energy engineer, building-space designer, etc. But I am also a firm believer in 'trust but verify,' so all of the opines coming out of her office are 'independently appraised' (by the customer!). [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Vinyl seems to be a green thing. I don't know much about it, but there apparently is toxicity with manufacturing of the product. And if the product is introduced to a burn condition, the vinyl lets off fumes that are deadly. The honorable Mrs. Slobuds tells me that building evacuation instructions have actually changed due to the prevalance of vinyl windows now. Something about going into the middle of the room now, standing up, rather than going to the floor in a corner.
I asked Ms. Architect to tell me how I get vinyl durability, in windows, WITHOUT having the V part. She was the one who told me wood or aluminum. Wood is a hassle, so I started looking for aluminum. Aluminum seems to be too good at conduction, so now I don't know WHAT to do. Looks like there are aluminum products that have some form of insulation also. But those windows seem pretty darn expensive to me.
So anyway. That's where it stands. Thanks for the URLs - I've visited a couple of them already.
We are indeed squared away regarding all of those heat loading calculations you mentioned. Ms. Architect already clued us in to the part of the design sequence regarding those aspects. Lots of math is involved. Plus stuff about the geology I am building into (I plan to berm due to high summer temperatures).
I'm quite happy that someone else is doing all of that work. Heck if I know how it all comes together. Straw bale, partial berms, radiant floor heat, solar dwh, large windows for view maximization, 110-degree summers, etc etc etc. Someone else can 'go figure.'
Thanks again,
Martin
-
Re: need some quick info
I put Home Depot (off the shelf) vinyl in a small cabin. You can tell that that stuff will last through and beyond the second coming. AND ... I was pretty happy because I moved from single-paned aluminum legacy stuff to this nifty new double-paned vinyl. Surprising how much more efficient they are.
Quality of those off-the-shelf windows aren't what I want to put in my new home though.
Martin
-
Re: need some quick info
I can offer an opinion on windows and doors, as I just bought ours. With the type house I'm building vinyl windows were out, not in keeping with the style. That left us with wood, and alum clad wood since the interior will be stained, not pianted. The al clad windows were only available in select colours, non of which suited Vickie. So that puts us back to wood. There are several window and door manufacturers in the area:ie, Jones door, King Sash and Door, Bennings, Atrium Door,ect. I looked at Pella because of all the TV adds, seemed they were so good. Well, The quality of Pella and the Quality of King Sash looked Identical to me. Now I don't claim to be a Window expert, but I'm not blind either. The wooden Pella were insulated and the low-E coating was a 50% upgrade, frames were stapled with sugar pine construction, jams were 7/8" X 4 9/16. The King Sash and Door windows were insulated, low-E coating was a 40% upgrade, frame were stapled 7/8" X 4 9/16 sugar pine. Pella were 280.00, King were 127.00. These are 2'8 X 5'2 double hung, double insulated, without the low-E. all wood snap in grids 6 over 6.
The twin windows were a bigger difference than the singles, and I have 4 twins. It was a no brainer for me.
The doors were a little different because Vickie wanted wooden 9 lite X- buck doors and King just happened to make them also. I had to paint the outside a dark green to match the Galvalume roofing, but I'm not to worried about maintance because the roof overhangs 2 1/2 feet, andall the outside doors are under cover of the porch, so shouldn't suffer from sun as much. HTH, Nat
-
Re: need some quick info
RaT, To get a quality window at a fair price, you need to shop outside the box (the big box that is.) At least with windows, the big box stores mostly sell mediocrity at a competitive price. I'm not knocking the quality of the big names only saying that my sources have seen as many shipped mistakes in the name brands as any others. I stand by my guns in claiming there are less advertised (less expensive) windows with independently verifiable performance specs. Its only money! I'm sure if I had bought Pella, Anderson, or whatever I could have got as good of quality and performance as I did with my "BRAND X" but it would have cost me thousands of dollars more and the only benefit would be the name on the label and the name on the MUCH LARGER check.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
SLOBuds, Sounds like you are headed in the right direction. All of design is tradeoffs and choosing the lesser of evils.
All of my master bedroom's walls are steel reinforced concrete. I don't think a major fire is too terribly likely in there so vinyl burning isn't much of a concern. Likewise the "favored" guest room. A fire in any of the rest of the house would be noticed long before it was burning the window frames if we were home and not important if we weren't. The alarm system has over temp sensors, rate of rise sensors, a couple different types of smoke detectors, and is tied into the security system which has a cell phone backup in case the phone line is inop.
There are aluminum windows with OK performance specs. They have decent thermal breaks and should last a good long time
B U T...
as you may have noticed, they aren't cheap. Now you have to consider how GREEN all the economic activity is that you must generate to buy that alternative and feel safe from the evil vinyl.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Thanks Pat and Nat. I appreciate your input on the windows. I am taking all of it to heart and am listening to your advice.
-
Re: need some quick info
Exactly. I wonder the exact same thing about the recycling programs in most of our cities. As you mention above, these are all series of compromises. The ultimate compromise, the ultimate answer, is overall simplification of life activities and reducion of consumption.
My father (92 years old) once had a colendar in his kitchen. The handles broke off, so he screwed them back on with fasteners he found in the garage. The places where he screwed them on started to rust, so he painted that area and screwed the handles back on again. The paint wore off after a couple of years and the colendar started to fall apart from rust traveling across much of the potential attachment area. He removed the screws and stored them in the garage again. Then he cut the colendar down in size, fashioned a few customized edges to it, and then used it to pre-filter paint.
The kitchen colendar was replaced, but not without a few unhappy remarks about stuff not lasting as long as before.
Martin
-
Re: need some quick info
I really admire that kind of simplicity. I am one to toss things pretty quick and feel guilty everytime I do it. I am trying to buy only what I need and buy quality.
-
Re: need some quick info
Martin, Great story. I recently replaced a failed UPS (Uninterruptable Power Supply) and kept the failed unit because I thought I could use some of the parts. I just ordered a part to repair a spray wand accessory on my pasture sprayer. New part cost $22.70 with shipping and the handle complete would have been $41)
Unfortunately we no longer: use it up, wear it out, or make it last. Instead we toss it and buy another. A few decades ago there was a sharp contrast between British goods and American. American goods were already into planned obsolesence-throw away. British goods were built on purpose to be repaired. In the yachting fraternity we used to joke about certain English built equipment: the good news is that you can get the parts and rebuild it but the bad news is you have to get the new parts and rebuild it.
It is likely a most unpopular non-politically correct thing to say but the underlying problem of the planet is over population and the desire of the masses of people to have all the things of the "better life."
Before good obstetrics and advances in medicine and pre/post natal care when life was very hard, humans responded with a great number of offspring and survived through greater numbers to offset the high infant mortality (and higher mortality rates in general.) Large families became THE right thing to do. The requirements have changed, largely due to nutrition, medicine, and sanitation. We really don't need as many babies to sustain the population. We don't need so many people to get 'er done due to technology and its labor saving devices.
Cultural biases (NORMAL practices) are slow to change, much slower than the conditions they evolved to contend with.
Remember the Peace Corps?
<font color="red"> WARNING
If you are easily angered or upset by an unpopular politically incorrect TRUTH, skip this following part! </font color>
In order to make the world a better place lots of do-gooders joined the Peace Corps. Many were posted to South and Central (AKA Latin) America. Here the volunteers taught villagers not to defecate in, near, or immediately uphill or stream of their drinking water as well as the art of boiling water to purify it. These simple improvements to sanitation seriously reduced infant mortality. Mind you these folks didn't even name their kids until they were a few years old because until then the child belonged to God (was likely, quite likely to die prior to age of getting a name due to high infant mortality rate from disease due to a large part to lack of simple sanitation.) It was almost a daily riitual to see a small child/baby coffin in a procession even in a fairly small village... again due to high infant mortality rate.
With improved sanitation the infant mortality rate plumeted but the birth rate DID NOT (these are GOOD CATHOLICS) so the population increased quickly beyond the villages capacity to feed itself, requiring more acres to be burned and put under cultivation to produce enough food to feed the burgeoning population.
Much of the land will not sustain decent productivity for long so even more land must be cleared to grow more food to feed the exponentially increasing number of people surving to reproductive age where they can continue the spiral.
Don't forget replacing a lot of bicycles and donkeys and foot traffic with terrifcally smokey infernal combustion machines and a multitude of other modern "improvements." Multiply this tale by a jillion and expand it to other parts of the world and you may begin to see the tip of the iceberg. //RANT MODE-OFF//
Well not quite... For decades in SOCAL water conservation has been a cause celeb. Moratoriums were placed on building until adequate water was found to flush all the new toilets. They found it in all the pre-existing toilets and showers. Water conservation was PUSHED BIG TIME. Was any water saved? NO ABSOLUTELY NOT! because lots of new houses were built to house more people who, even with water conservaton measures, use more water than before the conservation measures were mandated. The tax base was grown, developers and other moneyed interests made profit and their is less water per capita available now. //RANT MODE OFF// (I promise!)
To anyone offended... you were warned... get over it.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
-
Re: need some quick info
Well well well Pat. Not offended whatsoever. Very interesting stories too.
It takes a while to learn these things. If you are an armchair sociologist like me, the learnings are sometimes amusing, sometimes tragic, always interesting. But 'learning these things' is also an evolving process. At 91 years, and after that much time behind the wheel of life, my father continues to learn and continues to try to improve himself with the skills and abilities at his disposal.
Your vigenettes remind me of something that I am quite interested in for the moment: unintended consequences. That part of life's activities is absolutely fascinating. Everything from massive actions we are taking in Iraq, down to the 6" sapling I planted last weekend along Bobcat Lane. In all cases, things will happen that were not intended. Some times an entire culture will be affected. Some times a narrow slurried roadway. Or the guy who wants to tie his horse under the shade of that tree.
Another recent learning which is closer to topic here (well, at least to the hijacked thread) has to do with conservation.
I notice that my father (net worth approximately $5 million at the moment) is a) cheap, and b) repairs/reuses everything. He has gained a reputation in the family as being 'cheap.' And I also now notice that most farmers in the country have similar behavior. Nothing is thrown away. Everything is reused. Regardless of the financial health of the farm, all expenses are scrutinized and life is lived on the frugal. Things that aren't needed do not get aquired.
Recently I had this wonderful 'ah ha' experience when I realized that these people are not 'cheap' per se, but rather they are conservationists of the best kind. They are better than the best of ecologists. They are PRACTICING ecologists.
My grandchildren have large parties for birthdays and Christmas. The presents they receive at each of these events can literally be piled 4-6 feet into the air. I believe the momentary hightened activity during these events are just that - not associated even remotely with 'happiness.' When my children ask me what I want for my birthday or Christmas, I tell them that I would like them to cook a good meal for me; both of them together. I'm an oddball, you know.
So anyway. I'm done with these musings for awhile. It's certain that our new house will be choc full of stuff with unintended consequences, curious combinations, eco-friendly and eco-terrorizing objects, intelligent and unintelligent choices, and hopefully a place where 2 loving people can come home at night and feel safe.
Martin