I need some info. on the reverse osmosis filters. The one I'm looking for is a below sink style. Most of them have a 3.5 to 4.5 gal tank and a 4 filter system. Any advice will help.
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I need some info. on the reverse osmosis filters. The one I'm looking for is a below sink style. Most of them have a 3.5 to 4.5 gal tank and a 4 filter system. Any advice will help.
The reverse osmosis system will only work on fairly clean water. Iron or high TDS may quickly clog the filter.
Have your water checked for suitability prior to purchase. This will indicate if you need prior treatment , water is not suitable or water is okay.
If you have chlorinated water an activated charcoal filter is okay. Non chlorinated water use a charcoal filter.
The supplier should explain all this.
We have a culligan system. I am quite sure there are many other makes available.
Check on the size and replacement cost of the reverse filter of the different types.
Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Thanks, It looks like your a early riser. I forgot to say that I have a large green sand filter. It was serviced just early this year. It should take care of the Iron. I just wanted the extra protection for drinking and cooking.
I bought a RO filter system off of ebay a few weeks ago.... Egon is right... They are very sensitive to water pressure and quality. Call your water supplier and find out what the TDS number is (Total Disolved Solids) What I ended up finding out if the TDS is over 200 the water is bad and home RO systems won't do too well. Also, unless you have great pressure, it won't work either. Another thing to be aware of is that for every gallon of water produced, about four will be discharged to the drain. I ended up disconnecting the RO and going just with the charcoal filter and it improved the flavor.
I threw out my RO system because with my water and water pressure it never did work right. When I went to replace the RO filter it was $100.00. I changed over to a dual filter GE with carbon, and media filters, and am quite satisfied with the water.
If your RO did work you would be removing a lot of minerals that are beneficial to your health.
I don't understand the mentality of people wanting to drink distilled water these days.
Carbon (charcoal) is good because it can remove chlorine and many other known bad things that could be in your water. But it leaves the calcium and magnesium that we all need.
Can you say Osteoperosis?
bob...
Can you say cysts, virus, and other pathogens? A proper RO system removes those. Sometimes you have to pretreat such as with a softener to get TDS down to where the RO works well and lasts a good time.
Sea water is a fair challenge to RO units. Because of the osmotic pressure of the concentration of salt and minerals in sea water you need a thousand pounds or greater per square inch to force the source water through the membrane. These systems have gained in popularity over the last several decades. Small hand operated units are carried for emergency use and at least one manufacturer has a unit that can be operated manually if the motor fails or no electrical power is available.
You can get all the minerals you need without drinking them in your water. Removing pathogens and undesireable and dangerous chemicals is of much more importance (if they are present in your water supply) than losing some calcium which can be had through other sources. There are other filtration systems including UV, silver, etc for killing biologics but removing disolved chemicals known to be hazardous to your health has merit.
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
How many of those things do you have coming out of your kitchen faucet Pat?
bob...
speedbump, A better question may have been how many of those things would I have had coming out of my kitchen faucet had it not been for proper filtration, especially RO.
Sorry, I couldn't resist... Actually, although I have installed several RO units in the past, I haven't installed RO in the new house (yet.) Our well water is HARD and has detectable levels of contaminates including traces of salt and nitrates but at levels well below EPA guidelines with no detected coliform bacteria.
Although the well is plumbed to the new house, rural water is also plumbed to the house and is in use with the well water in reserve as a backup, just in case. The rural water source is a large lake south of here which is of course filled with rainwater (once in a while.) As the rain water is soft enough for us, we did not install a softener. I have a location reserved next to the whole house sediment filters for booster pump and softener should we elect to add either or both.
At any given moment I do not know what is coming out of an unfiltered faucet. I can recall twice in the last few years where a notice was mailed out to customers informing then of the fact (well after the event had been ameliorated) that certain health effects that they may have recently experienced could have in fact been caused by improperly treated water where certain organisms known to cause intestinal distress were present in the water supplied to customers. (Lots more indirect muttering and tables of EPA standards and such) Then a notice that the operator of the system had been sent to a school to prevent such things in the future. Apparently the schooling wore off because it happened again within a couple years. There may have been a third event, I don't recall for sure. The last one was a couple years ago. the rural water district has been in operation for less than 5 years so 2 or 3 "poisonings" of their customers in that period of time is a bit excessive in my opinion and prudent folks might be motivated to do something to prevent being adversely effected. We have two sources of filtered water (refrigerator dispensors) and will be adding filtration systems to feed separate faucets in some locations such as both kitchen sinks and maybe the master bath.
Sorry if I didn't give an exact answer to your question but I don't recall the names of the varioius organisms that passed through untreated. Probably just about anything that could live in a lake smaller than fish. LOts of that stuff that looks like Paisley.
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Cysts, and other pathogens are removed by regular filtration, depending on the type of media. Just read the labels to see what they do. I certainly have no RO on the drinking water on my refridgerator, but the filter traps cysts, and other pathogens, making a clean refreshing glass of water. Yes RO is great, but you can do the same filtration for a lot less money.
Sounds like they hired the water guy before he finished his water plant operator schooling. Bad choice on someones part. For my money I choose well water from a good deep source. None of these shallow wells that are full of chemicals. I have never lived anywhere that I couldn't drink the tap water and have the confidence that it was far better than bottled water (since we don't know for sure where that water comes from) and safer to drink. I feel sorry for anyone that has to worry about their drinking water.
Having said all that, I think RO under sink systems are simply false security. Most people have them installed and forget about them. That's more dangerous than not having one at all.
Have you ever changed out a charcoal filter that someone has had in service for 3 or more years? It's disgusting.
bob...
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I choose well water from a good deep source
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Even deep well water has a source that via which contaminates can enter and percolate to your well bore.
Egon
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Yes RO is great, but you can do the same filtration for a lot less money.
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Only some will be removed by filtration. RO gets them all.
Egon
Come on by the house. I'll let you have a drink from the well [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img]
Honestly, our well is pretty bad; Iron and other muck are in there. The water comes out tannish in color. All the wells on our side of the hill are like that.
We have a pleated filter for gross chunks, then softener, and then RO at the kitchen sink.
We fill the softener, clean and/or replace the pleated filter, and backwash the RO regularily. You are right on the money; if you do not maintian the system, it will give false security. We also have the well tested a couple times a year.
The RO water is definitely cleaner than bottled water. We use the bottle water, then refill a couple times from the RO.
rfawles, While I would agree that in recent decades the filtration technology available to the consumer/homeowner has greatly improved and that most biologics can be filtered out economically, your statement, "Yes RO is great, but you can do the same filtration for a lot less money." is not entirely accurate.
Commonly available filters that are less expensive than RO do not remove many disolved solids. Systems that do remove disolved solids are distilation or more extensive and expensive chemical units with chemical precipitation and such.
Not all disolved solids are bad so in many cases they need not be removed in order to have safe water and RO is not neccessarily the system of choice. There are however areas, especially in the southwest where there is sometimes significant quantities of salt and similar chemicals which are not removed with "ordinary" filtration. I have spent time in areas where there was significant quantities of arsenic in the water (see also Lost Dutchman's Mine.) As I was not there long enough to get much arsenic it was more a calculated and theoretical risk that a clear and present danger to our health, short or long term. However if we lived there we would need to treat our well water for arsenic. One way to do that is with RO which removes most "disolved stuff."
In some areas nitrates (from fertilizer) constitute a danger to the health of water consumers. Typical RO systems don't do so good against nitrates but the ones that operate at higher pressures (150psi or more) can get most nitrates.
If we had a nitrate problem with our rural water I would probably treat it with a special resin bed (like a water softener but optimized for nitrates.) I recall that out in California there were companies selling water softeners with part of the resin bed filled with the resin optimized for nitrates so for the same salt use you removed the fertilizer from your water along with "hardness."
America's "Salad Bowl" is the Imperial Valley (Imperial County, east of San Diego County.) Open loop irrigation is used and the fertilizers, pesticides, and other ag chemicals end up in the Colorado river along with minerals leached out of the alkali croplands. This water is then one of the major sources of potable water for San Diego and vicinity. Water quality is an issue out there. That is where I first started using RO. Rather than line up enough different types of filter units to handle all the variious challenges (and not knowing what I might miss), I used RO and activated charcoal like a shotgun to try to hit the worst of the most.
Again, filtration for the masses has improved. I haven't installed RO in the new house. I do have a hand pumped "back packers" water purification unit which we cary in our camper (we don't sleep on the ground as much as we used to) that I could use on our pond water if a real emergency event demanded.
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
No filter will remove what and as much of it as a RO membrane does. Viruses go right through a membrane and there is no filter that will remove them. There is a filter that will remove bacteria but RO should nor be used on water containing bacteria.
Actually RO does not remove 100% of anything so at best it reduces the volume of this'n that and, all RO has pre and post filters that remove 'things' in the water. All types of arsenic and lead etc. are not 'removed' by RO, and RO will reduce Nitrates and Nitrites. Nitrate specific anion resin is what is used in a regenerated filter (a softener actually) or as top dressing in a softener. Top dressing is not all that good.
No carbon or RO should be used on waters of unknown microbiological content. IOWs, no bacteria. Bacteria love the environment and organics in carbon, and all RO contains at least one carbon filter. All ROs have multiple pre-treatment requirements; like no H2S, no iron, TDS limits etc. and there are many types of membranes with at least three different kinds of membranes used depending on the water quality it is to used to treat.
I could go deeper into RO but I don't have the time. I will say that the vast majority of folks with a RO don't need it. They would do their water just as good with a dual stage drinking water filter with the proper cartridges in it.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary, When you say dual stage filter... What two stages. carbon and something? What would the something be?
What do you think about the silver elements as bacteriastatic adjuncts to potable water treatment?
I have two water dispensing friges and their filters do OK with our treated rural water but I intend to install some point of use filters to feed the separate little spigots installed or about to be installed at various sinks for cooking and drinking water. I am sure open to suggestions. The water to be treated is chlorinated rural water that is fairly soft as it is lake water (rain water.)
I know that out in the west the term "lake water" doesn't mean squat since many lakes are used as water storage devices and the source of the water could be very hard and alkali tainted (Colorado river or worse.) Not the case in this water supply.
I have two whole house filters in series, first a 200 mesh prefilter with drain ball valve so it never needs to be opened up for cleaning and the screen is permanent. This was to keep the "CHUNKS" out of the changable media particulate filter which is the last in the chain. I was intending to install taste and odor carbon filters. Do you think I need to consider anything other than activated carbon.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Yes, sediment and carbon block. They are disposable cartridges. The filter has a long reach RO faucet.
Next to no one sells silver impregnated carbon filters anymore. Silver doesn't kill bacteria, it creates an environment that bacteria don't like. And all carbon comes with a caution to not use it on water of unknown microbiological content; IOWs, free bacteria. All carbon removes taste and odor causing problems.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Gary may be right concerning membrane and viruses, but there are filters that remove viruses upto a log-5 (99.999%). Only one company produces an RO that is certified by WQA as an effective virus, bacteria and protozoa barrier system. This system an even be used on boil alerts.
Also, I disagree that the VAST majority of owners of ROs don't need them. That, being a subjective statement, is not really valid concening personal wants and needs of water treatment equipment. And water would not "do just as good" with a dual filter system as compared to an RO.
Andy CWS
Yes Doulton ceramic candles and some other filters remove bacteria and the ceramics are reusable but what more or less common filter removes viruses Andy?
As to the RO "need", there is very little proven need but yes, there are many MANY people, actually the vast majority of RO owners, that just "want"ed one.
When a Kinetico salesman such as yourself proposes one that is WQA Certified and speaks to the person's "want" without finding a water test based "need", they are being sold something.
With a $1000+/- price tag while it's very proprietary, how many of them are you 'selling'?
Also, most people with a RO simply want to remove the smell and taste of chlorine "and anything else that might be in the water" and do so without the salesperson telling them there probably won't be anything else in their water. I call that scare tactics. I hear that from RO owners or wanna be owners just about everyday. Since I have 4 times the experience in water treatment than you do, maybe you haven't heard that as often as I have. Plus I have 10 years answering posts and I believe you have about a tenth of that experience.
And we both know that the membrane in all ROs does not remove odor or most causes of bad tastes, the carbon pre and post cartridges do that and all ROs contain carbon cartridges of one kind or another; GAC and/or carbon block. They fit common industry standard off the shelf housings in 1-4 stage drinking water filters that install in the basement or under the kitchen counter the same as ROs. And they are much less expensive to purchase and maintain, do the same job as they do in a RO and use the same faucets as a RO while there is no storage tank to take up valuable space under the sink.
It was my understanding that the silver in the carbon filters kept the bacteria from multiplying. But did in no way kill them. Then you have the heavy metal "Silver" in your drinking water. I don't think that was the best trade off ever invented.
I remember about 15 years ago when these cute little top of sink units came out. Their big claim to fame was the silver that stopped bacteria growth. I'm not sure of the exact wording, but it was worded in such a way that you would think no bacteria would grow in these filters.
When someone mentioned the fact that this silver didn't necessarily stay in the filter, that some of it could be ingested, these cute little filters became not so popular.
I agree with Gary, most people just want an RO, they don't know why other than they have had the S*** scared out of them by filtration companies who are trying to sell them every filter known to man.
There is still no question that reverse osmosis water is a higher quality for water by removing dissolved solids. The use of electrolysis can clearly show the dissolved solids in the water. The body works harder to rid these solids.
RO water removes more than just tastes. There are many advantages and improvements in water quality.
Any salesman that uses scare or hype is doing no one but himself any service.
And there are many out there selling water equipment that stoop to unprofessional methods to promote their business including lying to or misleading customers about competitors' equipment and even bad mouthing the competition.
Most reasonable, intelligent people can see the difference.
Andy Christensen, CWS
Dissolved solids are not a health concern. The EPA and most States limit TDS to 500 ppm but that is not an established MCL (max contaminate level), it is suggested and not enforced.
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Any salesman that uses scare or hype is doing no one but himself any service.
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Mentioning TDS as you have above sounds like scare tactics to me...
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And there are many out there selling water equipment that stoop to unprofessional methods to promote their business including lying to or misleading customers about competitors' equipment and even bad mouthing the competition.
Most reasonable, intelligent people can see the difference.
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And then there are those salesmen that sell overpriced non-electric water powered softeners for $2000-$4700 and an RO for another $1000 and do their best to convince people the price is justified. But you're right, most people, intelligence aside, see the difference.
Gary
Quality Water Associates
Boy, if that sounds like scare tactics you would be great to visit at Halloween...
There was nothing scary or mischievious about what I said. The fact is water quality is improved with quality treatment and customers that I personally follow up on make clear statements of their water improvement. When I retest their water, I ask for comments and referrals.
The EPA recommends 0-50ppm to be ideal for drinking water and for blended or mixed beverages. Prepare two Tipton teas, one with 500ppm and one with 10 ppm and the difference in clarity, aroma, taste and appearance is clear and dramatic.
And when water, as in my area reaches levels of 1500 TDS there is little choice in finding alternatives to their tap water.
I never mentioned nor even implied that TDS has ill health effects, and health-related issues should be determined by professionals equiped, trained and certified to make such conclusions. Recommendations to answer health concerns due to water, should also be handled by professionals.
Andy Christensen, CWS
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I never mentioned nor even implied that TDS has ill health effects, and health-related issues should be determined by professionals equiped, trained and certified to make such conclusions. Recommendations to answer health concerns due to water, should also be handled by professionals.
Andy Christensen, CWS
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Oh? Here is what I read from you above and replied to:
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The use of electrolysis can clearly show the dissolved solids in the water. The body works harder to rid these solids.
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So IMO you have linked health to TDS, and then you went on to suggest an RO.
To my knowledge TDS is aesthetic, not a health concern (no MCL) and TMK there is no science showing your linking TDS to health to be true.
All we have is the hype of a slick smooth talking consummate "professional" WQA certified salesman with Kinetico (you) suggesting/implying/inferring there is a link.
Then, as you always do, you deny saying implying or inferring whatever and deflect attention away from your statement. ...
1. Isn't calcium one of the biggest constituents of the TDS in many water supplies?
2. Aren't lots of folks buying and taking calcium pills?
Pat
TDS a measurement of all the things (soluables) that are contained (dissolved) in the water. Any calcium would contribute to the TDS.
Gary, I thought I said that! Isn't calcium carbonate or such typically the major component of the TDS in potable water?
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
No.
But then most folks don't looking for individual parameters making up the TDS of a particular water; whats the point in looking? Or, what difference does it make? Actually TDS is made up of both cations and anions and they will balance each other, or your TDS measurement is incorrect.
Sorry Gary, I guess we were just not communicating. I was pointing out that just having dissolved solids was not automatically a health risk since a frequent major component is something people go to the store and buy to take in pill form.
Of course if some of the dissolved solids are arsenic, nitrates, salt, and such that is different.
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
OK, I was reading it differently. Yes, TDS is not a health concern. The allowed TDS is 500 ppm but not enforced much, it causes taste, corrosion and water spot problems.
Gary
Quality Water Associates