Puppy named Houdini

I have a fairly new puppy (about 5 months) and I'm having trouble keeping her from escaping my fenced area. The primary reason that I fenced in my back yard (about 2 acres) was to be able to get a dog for the kids. The dog is a Rhodesian Ridgeback (about lab sized soon) and she is an escape artist. The fence I put up is 5 feet of non climb horse fence with 3 rails (2 x 6) I also have several gates in those 2 acres to allow for me to get my tractor in and out. The problem I have found is that she is jumping through the top of the gates. I was wondering if anyone knew of a good way to make those gates "hot" without requiring me to wire the whole back yard. I also have young children and don't want to have to worry about them either. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] Any suggestions would be great. I curently have tied some twine in that area but it's only a matter of time before she'll chew through that.

Hmmm,

Don't mean to sound like one of those self righteous persons, but did you know anything about RR's before you got one? Are you kidding us? Make the fence/gates "hot"? For a dog?
My RR is a little over three years now and there are still situations I won't expose him to. A puppy shouldn't be left to amuse itself by keeping it locked in a fenced in area, especially one as smart and independent as a ridgeback. Independent means they were bred to think and react for themselves, not like your typical hunting dog that was bred to work as a team with its owner. They were also bred to chase things tirelessly, whether it's a lion (what their original job was), a rabbit or the roof of a car over the crest of a hill that catches their eye. They aren't the kind of dog that you open the door and you and your dog go walk to the mailbox together. Not unless she's on leash or you and her have spent much time obedience training and she's "on command" to heel or stick close by.
My advise would be for you and your kids to spend some time with your puppy and tire her out and then keep her somewhere where there isn't so much stimuli to arouse her curiousity to wander. Aleast for another couple of years. Electrifying your fence will only cause a smart dog to dig under it.
Unfortunately for RR's, they are becoming the "flavor of the month" for dogs and many people don't realize the "attitude" these dogs have.
Good luck for you and your dog.

Fred

Forgot to add, RR's aren't the type of dog you want to leave alone where your kids' friends could walk in on her on your property. They are very territorial and have a strong guarding instinct. Her's should be starting up in about 5 more months.

<font color="blue"> They were also bred to chase things tirelessly, whether it's a lion (what their original job was), a rabbit or the roof of a car over the crest of a hill that catches their eye. </font color>

Fred, I agree wholeheartedly with what you say, not just for RR's, but for all of the sighthound breeds. They need a well-structured environment, which includes good chain link fencing (minimum 6 foot) and a lead when they are not enclosed. Their instincts to chase are so strong they can be gone at the drop of a hat. For sighthounds, "obedience" usually takes second seat to the coursing instinct [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

At this moment, I am being loved up by a Greyhound, and am being studiously ignored by an Ibizan Hound.

Fred, I have two Beagle/lab mixes that are the same way. These guys see something they want to chase, there after it. If they cant go over, or through a fence, they will go under it. I have to keep an eye, or an ear on them at all times. Luckly they bark first, then chase, so I get a little warning. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

"stuiously ignored" <font color="blue"> </font color>
It's funny how most of the sighthounds don't really care if you are around or not, at least that's how they act. Here's a pic of my boy Dart when he was about 11 months old in all of his arrogant glory [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] He wasn't looking at someone, that's just where he wanted to direct his attention even though I was kneeling right in front of him. He has lost his position between him and my female Presa (who is 8 months younger) so he does like to stick close to me in the house now, but he still has "that" attitude. Six ft. fence is definitely the way to go until he realizes that he can get under it.
Funny too how most of your sighthounds don't bark while giving chase, but most of your scenthounds do. Maybe because they were usually used on open land where their owners could see them?
Hope we aren't getting too far off topic here, I know there's a pet forum.

Fred

hey, where'd my attachment go? let's try this again.

<font color="blue"> his arrogant glory </font color>

Yes, I'm used to that look, or should I say the lack of one [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I just started a sighthound thread in the Pets forum, so we can keep things in their proper place.

You need to get your dog under control. These are good size dogs and they need to be trained not confined. I have a Giant Schnauzer that is boundary trained and an adopted five year old that is in training.

Yesterday a buck ran across the dogs free area. No fences just training. The Giants took off and chased the deer to the boundary that is my neighbors property. At that point the only barrier is that I cut the grass at about six inches and my neighbor scalps his.

They knew they were not to cross the line and stopped and watched the deer run into the woods. My two year old knew she was due a treat and came running to make sure I didn't forget to reward her behavior. It takes a lot of time to train a dog but a well trained dog is a pleasure to have around.

If you solve the gate escape, the dog will just find another way to get out.

TD,

You have gotten some well intentioned advice in the form of some tough love.

We've got two labs, 1 pup (7monthes) and one older (7 years). As much as we all want to let them roam the back 40, the little guys need to be confined when not supervised. This either means a crate in the house or building him a proper kennel (chainlink sides &amp; top over a concrete floor). This also means if your children are young, you need to supervise play time.

We've tried to leave the little guy in the fenced yard, he simply entertains himself by chewing on the deck railing or grille hoses, the arborvite, or the final straw the house itself [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] So he is crated while we are at work.

He gets a walk in the morning &amp; evening and is free to roam the house if someone is home. He also gets play time in the backyard (supervised) in the evening. He seems content with this schedule. And there is much less destruction [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] .

Oh and obendience school is a great idea, dogs need to socialize with other dogs, even if you home school the obedience part. The little guy just started last week. We skipped level one as my wife had tought him the basics &amp; started with level 2 which is obagility. (Obedience &amp; Agility training). Kind of fun as he gets to walk the plank &amp; thru hulla hoops etc. Kind of takes him to the next level as he has to perform the commands with the distraction of 6 other dogs in the same room.

The key to a well behaved dog is that you have to be more stubborn then them. It takes a lot of time and energy which is tough in today's world.

Good luck &amp; have fun, he should be a valued family member for years to come.

Forgot to attach a pic. These are the boys in Acadia National Park (Labor day camping trip). The black one is Radley (the pup). The yellow one is Wilson. Radley slept on my head in the tent [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Fred,

Thanks for your response although you might have worded it a little better as you came across self righteous indeed. Some assumptions were made on your behalf as well. Let me make it clear here I did countless hours of research on this particular breed before getting her. I'd like to think she would not have a better opportunity to grow up one happy puppy with the environment that we have the ability to provide her. I have two friends who have full grown RR's and other than them these are the only Ridebacks that seem to be around in my area so I wouldn't really call it the flavor of the month but......

My intention is not to torment the dog but really to provide her 2 acres of which to run as opposed to being shut in a very small kennel type area. As far as digging her way out - that would be impossible with my severely rocky soil conditions. She has already tried and given up very quickly.

I talked to the head of the Ridgeback Rescue association in my state and SHE suggested that I hot wire the fence. I might be wrong but I'm guessing she knows more than you and I put together. I have spent quite abit of time reading up on how best to nurture the puppy in the most responsible way I can. With that said - good tip on the guarding instincts I have read that this should happen around 10 months or so. That particular trait is one of the reason that this breed is the one I selected. We won't have any problems with kids friends walking in on us as we live way out in the middle of nowhere. I appreciate your response and will do the best I can.

TD,

I know this still doesn't answer your question about how to electrify the gate, but anyway. Have you thought about one of the invisable fence systems?

You may be able to run it along your current fence &amp; bury it at the gates. Saves you from having to dig in your rocky soil. My inlaws have had good luck with their setup. Be sure to keep a fresh battery in the collar.

Hazmat,

Good to see you over here on CBN as well as TBN. Apparently my question struck a nerve. I am preparing to pour a large pad which will make a terrific kennel for the puppy. We are having great fun so far. She too, likes to chew anything she can get ahold of. My post was a hopeful way to avoid having to put her in the kennel during the day while we are at work as well but it appears that this might really be the only way to accomplish the task. She is constantly at my side while I work in the yard but I've noticed her checking out the neighbors and watching the tail lights of the cars on the road (1000 ft away down the hill). We are scheduled for some obedience training soon and that will help me. I'm certainly not an expert in this department and willing to listen to any suggestions (preferrably those given a little more kindly).

Hazmat,

I have thought about the invisible fencing systems. They are great. My brother in law just had one put in for his two Shitsu puppies. Fortunately for him his yard is only 6000 square feet. The part of the yard I'm trying to allow her free reign is about 2 acres. This might be a bit more money than I'm willing to spend. I guess I'll have to go your route. It's funny that you mention this though as I got a bit of flack for mentioneing hot wire. Isn't the invisible fence more or less the same thing? Again my ultimate goal was simply to allow the dog more room to roam during the day as I hate to keep her "caged" up. I guess I need to be more concerned with her safety which means that I shouldn't even consider letting her stay in the back yard during the day.

<font color="blue"> The part of the yard I'm trying to allow her free reign is about 2 acres. This might be a bit more money than I'm willing to spend. </font color>

It is my understanding that the electrical guts of the system are what cost the $$$ &amp; that the wire is pretty cheap. You don't have to buy the invisible fence brand wire. Don't know what you do have to get, but I think it has been discussed on TBN.

<font color="blue"> My post was a hopeful way to avoid having to put her in the kennel during the day while we are at work as well but it appears that this might really be the only way to accomplish the task </font color>

I know how you feel. For some reason the little guy just doesn't understand when I tell him "I'll leave you out in the fresh air to play in the grass with your brother and swim in the pool if you'd just stop chewing on the darn house" Hopefully with time we'll be able to.

For now he really doesn't seem to mind the crate at all. Even when we are home, he is sometimes in it when I don't feel like watching him.

Hazmat,

We are living in the same world. I have taken to putting her in her crate when I just can't keep an eye on her. That is definitely one thing I have learned. When she gets in trouble it is, of course, my fault for not watching her every move - just like my kids. Even if I can't let her run around all day in the back yard I'd sure like to let her run out there when we are home and busy cooking dinner, etc. I can't have her in the house all the time right now as my kids are very little and she gets very excited whenever they are near. I bring her in with me at night when the house is quiet and all of the external distractions are gone to sleep. Eventually though our goal is to have her in the house all of the time with us.

I'll have to re-read that thread on TBN. I'm sure I saw it but wasn't too interested at the time. Now i'm definitely getting more interested. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Hi Todd,

<font color="blue"> I have thought about the invisible fencing systems. </font color>

Since you have been in touch with your RR rescue folks, I am curious what they would say about this. Our experience with sighthounds has been that real fencing is the only thing that works. They (sighthounds) have such an incredibly strong instinct to chase, and they can see for such incredible distances (they will see the squirrel at 500 yards that is all but invisible to you), and once on the chase they have absolutely no sense of anything else (roads, cars, you, etc) because they are so focused on the chase, that invisible fencing would be nothing more than a tickle as they start their chase. Shoot, with the gait the sighthounds employ (the double-suspension gallup), they might not even feel the tickle if they were at top speed when they crossed the invisible fence.

I notice you are in the Seattle area. Our Ibizan Hounds have all come from a breeder near there, in LaConner.

First off a puppy shouldnt be left unattended in a yard. Second the Rhodesian Ridgeback is not a good "family dog". This is a hunting dog (use to hunt lions). It is very loyal to its master and can be dangerous to strangers. The dog needs a single master to obey.

<font color="blue"> Our experience with sighthounds has been that real fencing is the only thing that works.</font color>

It probably wasn't clear, but, my suggestion is to use the invisable fence in addition to the real fence. IE give her a little zap while she is contemplating going over the gate.

This of course assumes that she isn't heading full tilt at the gate &amp; leaping it in a single bound aka superdog [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

We leave our two GSP's in a kennel while we are at work. I wouldn't feel at all comfortable leaving them free range over the whole yard. I suspect that this might even cause training/obedience problems.

People all have their ideas about how to raise dogs and I get quite fed up of them telling me I should do this or that. I don't want this to sound like that - these are just my methods.

Dogs need to know who's in control. If they don't, they'll establish a leader amongst themselves. If you have more than two dogs, this can become a serious problem that is dangerous for the animals and you. The dog needs to know that you are the one who decides if, when and what he eats. He needs to know that you lead the way in and out of different areas. My dogs don't go for a run in the field unless I'm there - not only because I'm concerned for their safety, but also for them to associate being able to run free with being in my company. This is probably more important for a hunting breed, but the benefits are there for all.

Here's the kennel that my dogs stay in. It's a 10'x10' with 2 doors and a divider down the middle.

Invisisble fencing can be great for some dogs. My neighbors use it to keep their Boston Terriers in a 2-3 acre area. The thing I don't like about it is that dogs with a strong desire to get on the other side of the fence (as we all seem to agree a sighthound will have) will get "punished" for trying to get back into their area. Of course this is only if they are wearing the collar. You have to let them wear the collar, or any electronic collar for that matter, for quite a while so they don't associate that they will only get corrected when they are wearing the collar. I suppose you could only puy it on when you let them in the yard, but then you aren't training them to stay in your yard. I do like the way it gives a warning to let the dog change its mind about getting closer to the off limit area.
I too find the rescue workers suggestion a little off the "normal" train of thinking that most sighthound people seem to have. How about fencing in a smaller area with higher fencing until the pup is out of its puppy and adolescent stage? It makes walking your property a whole lot nicer too when you don't have to worry about stepping in anything. My dogs have a small fenced in area attached to my house and that's where they are let out to do their business or hang out when I can't have them running loose, but they still want outside.

Fred

gws,

I would wholeheartedly agree with you when a puppy should not be left unattended but from everything I have read and all of the people I have talked to say the the Ridgebacks are an excellent family dog. This is one of the primary reasons I selected this particular breed.

tenebrous,

I would love to get some pointers on how you have trained you dogs so well with the boundary definition.

Hank,

Thanks for your response. It appears that my path to sanity requires me to build a good sized kennel and my yard theory is just not going to cut the mustard.

Yep, I live a little ways southeast of Seattle (more in the mountains). I did go to college up near the LaConner area. That is a great part of the state. Also a great place to pickup antiques (and dogs - I guess).

Fred, It seems the consensus from this field of sight hound experts agree that I really need to build a smaller area with taller fence to keep the puppy at bay while she is growing up and testing all of her boundaries.

Thanks to everyone for all the feedback - looks like any hotwire situation is not only a waste of time but perhaps incorrect as well.

If you ever decide to take up lure-coursing with your RR, that's a good way for the dogs to enjoy the chase. There's a Cascade Coursing Club in your area. In the group picture on their home page, I think I can make out 4 RR's in the front row [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Hank,

Thanks much for the info. It looks like they are very close to my area.

Boundary training is a combinations of skills and each needs to be taught. Sit, stay, come, stop and of course no must be taught before attempting to teach your dogs to respect a boundary.

After you can stop your dog and have them sit at a distance of a least twenty yards you are ready to start boundary training. The training will go much easier if you have boundaries that are easy for the dog to recognize. Our property has a road to the West, a creek to the North, a woods to the East and an old fence line for most of the South boundary. Our problem area is a four hundred foot stretch of the South boundary that is not fenced and is my neighbors lawn just meeting ours. To help our dogs I let our grass grow much longer there than my neighbor does. Probably does not make him happy but it is better than a fence.

There are several ways to go about it but I use a 26 foot retractable lead. I walk the dog as many time during the day as I can and always follow the boundaries. I am constantly talking to the dog and will stop them by command. I may have the dog sit or lay down and wait for me to catch up. I will have them sit and stay while I walk the length of the lead away from them. I may do each of these ten times during our walk. All of them at or very near the boundary. I never let the dog cross the boundary while on the lead.

After they are responding well to commands at the boundary, I start to let them walk off the lead with me. That is when the training really starts and the preparation pays off. Most people try to get to this stage too fast. If the dog is not ready he will show you that soon enough. If they cross the boundary over and over, go back to the prep stage. As you walk close to the boundary the dog will eventually go to it. That is when I use the &amp;#8220;NO&amp;#8221; command. If they cross the boundary I stop and give the sit command. I walk to them and scold them. Freyja, my two year old Giant Schnauzer, was boundary trained at one year old. It was difficult for her because we were not living at the property and the training time was limited. Seven to eight months would have been more like it if she had more training time. She made it easy for me to train her father who we just adopted. Eight days and Seigir was respecting all the boundaries. He was already well trained in the usual ways so teaching him the boundaries was easy. At five years old he was a very quick study.

Our two do not range on the ten acres that are within the boundaries but are trained to stay close to us. We never want them out of the range of our voice. If they do drift away, my wife or I correct them quickly. I almost forgot the most important part. I always have jerky or other treats in my pocket. When the dogs respond correctly, they are rewarded. Just a small piece is enough. The dogs are scolded when they do not respond correctly but never punished or hit in anyway.

Giants are large dogs that love to run. They will chase anything from a chipmunk to a deer. They will follow a scent relentlessly. Freyja will follow a scent to the boundary and then bark to let everyone know it went that way.

Giants are funny too. I was out working by the creek and Freyja was sleeping under a tree not far away. I looked for her and she was gone. When I called her she did not appear right away. Then she came over the hill from the house running to me. I could see that she was very wet and had been in the creek. My wife had seen her sneak down the creek and circle around behind me. The only thing she forgot was to towel off.

There are dogs that will not boundary train but it is usually a problem of getting them trained at all. Those are the exception, most dogs will make mistakes from time to time but they know they are wrong. Mine usually come and sit in front of me and give the OK I screwed up look. After scolding them they get a pet and we do some commands. After they do those correctly, they get their treat.

I sure did ramble on but I wanted to explain to you what I do. There are some that probably have better ideas but this works for me.

tenebrous,

Thanks very much for the information. I didn't think you were rambling at all and as I am not very experienced in this area I have been trying to soak in as much info as possible from people who are.

I have had pretty good luck so far with basic commands. I have been using the "treat" method and as my dog loves food more than anything - this seems to work pretty well as long as it is just the two of us doing the training. She tends to keep her attention very well when we train in the evening. I do need to establish some boundary training in the front yard as she has discoverred the neighbors house and likes to explore. I don't have any fencing in the front yard yet so this would be a good place to practice.

One tip regarding the treat method. Mix it up a bit - give treat or loving attention (you're suuuuch a good dog + scratch the special spot) for good behavior.

My older lab knows if I have biscuits in my pocket or not &amp; behaves accordingly. We've primarily been rewarding the puppy with love &amp; attention. So far so good.

The treat method works &amp; fast too. You need to decide if you want to be a walking cookie jar. I think this can be avoided if you treat sparingly.

<font color="blue">The treat method works &amp; fast too. You need to decide if you want to be a walking cookie jar. </font color>

Hazmat, you are right about being a walking cookie jar. Once the dogs are responsive, the love and attention reward is all they really need. I just have the habit of putting the treats in my pocket and rewarding them once in a while. Freyja will nose my pocket if she thinks that she has done something deserving a treat.

<font color="blue"> Freyja will nose my pocket if she thinks that she has done something deserving a treat. </font color>

I've forgotten that I had them in my pocket. Take the pants off &amp; leave them on the floor. Dog remembers they are in there and chews thru the pants to get the biscuit. [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

<font color="blue">Dog remembers they are in there and chews thru the pants to get the biscuit. </font color>

Not good, in the summer I carry them in a pouch on my belt. Freyja had gotten playful and ran by and grabbed the pouch. At close to a hundred pounds she would give me a good tug. That stopped in hurry. It is not good to make the walking cookie jar angry.

TDenny my wife works at petsmart, they sell a solar powered electric fence. It would be considerable overkill to just wire over the gate but this would give you that ability. Hope this helps. I have 3 acres and our Rot/Huskie mix has free roam. He is somewhat boundry trained but he does slip over and play with the neighbors dogs but comes when called. Anyway have a good one Jray [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

jray,

Thanks for the tip. Due to the rest of the suggestions I've gotten I am going to try and accomplish what I think I need without electricity. Again she seems to mind pretty well these days except for when I've got visitors around - which is where I need the most work.