Hay - Grow or Buy?

With our small acreage (12.5), we have sheep and horses with the intent on getting a couple of calves in the spring. About 8 acres is now open field that the previous owner grew hay on. I currently buy 100-150 square bales of hay in a season. The question is: Is it worth me looking into purchasing the implements to make my own hay? By my back-of-the-napkin calculations, I should be able to get about 300-400 bales out of the field, meaning I would have some to sell from each cutting (assuming the drought ever ends) to offset the cost of the machinery. There is a used farm implement auction in a couple of weeks that I plan on attending, but would like some advice on what to look for, and look out for.
Do you all have any advice and counsel?
Thanks in advance.

Frank in Virginia

I would have to say ABSOLUTELY NOT. Unless you like breakdowns, fixing machinery all the time, worrying about the weather, having to cut and bale hay at the worst times, ie you have a wedding to go to and you have hay down and it's supposed to rain tomorrow. Unless you like trying to find what to do with a crop of hay that got too much rain and is ruined.

IF you only 100-150 bales a year it's definitely worth just buying it and not messing with hay. I don't care what anyone says it's a royal pain in the you know what. Plus the fact that you are going to be buying someone else's problems with old enough equipment that you could even halfway justify. A new square baler is over $12k for the low end one. Then add on that the fact that parts are extremely expensive. You will more than likely pay twice or better in parts every year for the hay that you do get.

A much better idea in your situation would be to just cross fence the pasture and do rotational grazing. Ten times less effort than haying and you still get to enjoy your weekends [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

At what point then would you consider it worth doing it yourself then? i.e., if 150 bales a year is too little, how many would you need to produce to justify the cost and hassle of doing it yourself?

Also, curiuous to hear what others are getting/paying for square bales of hay around the country?

I pay $1-$2 bale for mulch hay, $3 for first cut, $4 for second-cut and $6 for "certified organic". (haven't bought any organic [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] )

A friend of mine paid $4000 for a truck load of large round bales [ 800# ?? ] I think there are 34 bales per truck. This is in western Canada were there has been drought conditions.
Pricing would seem to depend on the supply/demand principal.

As for putting up your own hay do some math and figure out the cost versus income and how much land is required. This can vary from year to year and very definetly from agricultural zone to zone.

Follow Cowboydocs advice as about the only enjoyable part of haying is the evening smell of fresh cut grass. The rest is just plain hard work unless you are totally mechanized and if you have that kind of money why bother.

Egon

That all depends on what kind of equipment you want to buy. Just in square baling equipment I've got $40,000 and the only new thing I have is my square baler. For my round baler add another $16,000 for the baler and then I use a different tractor for it, although you could use the same tractor, that's $56,000. You do the math and figure where it would pay you to do it. My 4430 is 25 years old and my 4020 is 35 years old. I put about $1000 into them this year. My mower conditioner is a 1460 that is 8 years old and my rakes and 15 and 10 years old. I go through 300 tons of hay a year. I put up about 600 tons a year and do 100 acres, so yes it does pay for me. But if you do it on a small scale it doesn't.

If you want to buy junk equipment then yes you can do it. But with junk equipment you are constantly working on it. I only do about 3000 bales a year with my square baler and it was hard to justify a new baler but I spent more time working on the dang baler than I did baling. It was just a constant hassle. Even with the new baler you still have problems.

I agree with the Cowboy on this,buy that hay.All you have to do is go get it and put it in your barn,if you are buying out of the barn versus the field it is even more conveniant yet,but you may pay about 25/50 cents more on a bale out of the barn.
You do not have the "overhead" to worry about,no equipment/weather etc.....

Last year I paid $2/bale for alfalpha/Timothy mix. This year, with the drought, it was $3 per bale, and wasn't nearly as good. That was what got me thinking about trying to make my own. I guess I figured a small square baler could be picked up pretty cheap, but never considered it would be a maintenance nightmare. What about paying someone to make the hay for me on my land? Do any of you do that? What would you expect to pay? Would you pay per bale? per hour? Per acre?

Frank

That's what I would do in your position if you didn't want to rotational graze it. Around here it can be done on halves. Farmer does all the work and you get half of the crop. Or the rates are: $10-12/acre for mowing/conditioning, $3/acre to rake, and .35-.45 cents per bale to square bale. Round baling is $8/bale with twine and $10/bale with wrap. With this method you keep all the hay.

In answer to your question what should you look for;

- Sickle bar mower 3PTH mount $600-1200
- Hay Rake (Wheel or PTO driven) $800-1000
- Std Baler - No Thower (PTO or engine driven) $1200-3000

This is the basic setup and pricing will depend on condition, then you need to figure storage of the equipment, something to pickup the bales (wagon or truck) and if your tractor can run a baler (30HP range).

Based on your numbers it would take forever to break even with selling half your crop when you factor in time and repairs so the smart move is to have it done for you.

Carl

If you want to be practical, Cowboydoc gives good advice. Carl also gives good advice of what you need to start haying at a minimum. I'm far from an expert. This was my first year at attempting to hay. I only got one cutting, and it was a ton of work. And yet, for me, it was one of the most enjoyable experiences I ever had. I've wanted to farm my whole life, and this is my chance. Yup, Cowboydoc is right. I got used equipment, had to get my farm mechanic to come and fix my used baler once. It wasn't expensive to fix it, but it did conk out in the middle of haying a field, but it worked fine after that![img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

With your property, rotational grazing is the way to go...unless...you've always wanted to try your hand at farming. I'll probably never make any money, but I sure do have fun!![img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

I guess that really sums it up. I am a computer guy by day and a farmer by night and weekend [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I do use rotational grazing, but at some point I do need to use some hay, and since I have some acreage still unfenced, thought it would be a good use of the ground and as a bonus, I get seat time on the tractor!
I have a friend up the road who has a turkey farm, so I should be able to get some good fertilizer, so the grass should grow better if I actually tend it. I'm still not set in my mind which way I'll go, but as usual, this group of like-minded folks always gives great information to chew on!
Frank

Frank,

I have to agree with doc on this one.

Here is my analysis that I developed for my own case. Most is applicable to other areas. Yields may vary but my values are fairly typical.

Round Bales:
Average yield in my county is 2.3 tons / acre.
Looks like you would probably be the same.
http://www.forage.com/hay/region/us/...ieldvatsa.html

Average hay market value is nominally $40-$50/ton for mixed grass in 1000 lb large round bales. Alfalfa would be higher. So this gives a gross of ~$100 / acre. So for ten acres you gross $1000 / acre / year.

Square Bales:
Same average yield. Average dollar value is $2-$3/bale for ~60 lbs small square bales. So this is better with a value per acre of ~$230. So that same 10 acres is worth around $2K. Of course this a lot more work. But if you assume your time is of no value then maybe this is the way to go.



Now look at the costs.

Square:
Lets assume that you have the tractor already and the maintenance is free. I think you might be able to get some very dated square bale equipment for 5-10K. But 10-20K is more likely unless as doc has outlined you don't mind repair work. So that means that you are looking at 5-10 years just to pay for the equipment. On top of all this you will need to fertilize the field each year to get the yields and maybe lime on occasion. Not to even consider all the time it will take to stack and store those ~800 bales. And again your time was not included in the math.

Round;
Even worse. The only good news is that this can be a one-man endeavor since you can stack and store the round bales with an FEL spear.


My own analysis for my property assuming around $20K for the hay equipment indicated that it was not worthwhile unless I could hay about 40-50 acres. That allows the equipment payoff to happen in a reasonable time frame since the gross is around 5K for round bales.
Also keep in mind that you probably need around 60 pto hp to run a round baler. So in some cases square bales may be the only option.

Disclaimer: I am hardly an expert. I will be putting up ~50 acres next year in round bales. This is why I did the analysis in an excel spreadsheet. Feel free to check my numbers and point out any errors that may exist.

As rich pointed out this is the economics. You may well decide to ^%$& with the money I want to do this anyway. Just be carefull that you don't end up with no hay to feed the animals because your 2K bailer died in the field and all your cut hay was rained on and destroyed.

Fred

Just an aditional item;
Old balers require maintenance and even break down in the field. They have been known to Do serious damage to operators who get the least careless when they plug up.

Egon

Fred,

Great post, thanks for the extensive analysis. Any chance of sharing your excel spreadsheet?

I think you all have convinced me that this would be a bad idea for me. I was hoping to get into the equipement for about $1,500, not $15,000! [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] If my numbers were right, it would have been a fun investment, at the larger number, just a money pit. With the small operation I have, it seems to make sense for me to pursue hiring someone with equipement to make the hay for me from my grass.

Frank

Frank, thanks for the valuable calculations...I suspect from a pure dollars and sense point of view, the calcs are right, but as you say, you do need to factor in the enjoyment of the activityu and its hard to put $$$ on that as it varies by person.

The one thing however that keeps me interested in pursuing this as a viable pursuit, is the conversation I had with a local farmer the other day when I bought some hay from him, and that was, in this area anyway, he is selling and more importantly getting, $6 per sqaure bale for organically grown hay.

If you factor in $6 per bale for the organic stuff, and assumming your costs do not go up dramatically because of it, then the return on investment comes a lot quicker.

Just something to think about [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Also figure in alfalfa as compared to grass. Mostly what I do is alfalfa. I get 6-8 tons per acre from this and get 2 or 3 more cuttings than grass as well. Still takes alot to justify the equipment but if you are going to do it put it into alfalfa.

Frank, you are in the ballpark for the price of used equipment. I spent $2500 on my used New Holand baler and 2 kicker wagons. The baler works, but as I said it did need one repair in the middle of haying. A plunger sheared off, and had to be replaced. My mechanic thinks it should do fine next year, since the part broke due to metal fatigue of a 20 year old baler. We'll see how it does next year. As has been pointed out already, though, I will not depend on my own hay for my animals as my only source until I have A LOT more experience under my belt! But if you're interested in starting up as a learning experience, as I'm doing, it can be done. Next year I hope to move up to TWO CUTTINGS!![img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Eventually, I do really expect to produce enough hay for my animals, and even sell some, but it may take me several years to get to that point. I've only had my farm for two years, and I know Rome wasn't built in a day. I've gotta crawl before I walk, and I may stumble and fall, but I will, eventually suceed! Enough cliches', you get my drift![img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Doc,

I think you are lucky in that you are in an area that has deep rich soil that will grow anything. Some of us are not so lucky. Last time I was in Iowa I was impressed by the fact that the soil is better than average. This apperas to be true for large parts of the midwest.

In my area the soil is thin and rocky. I use to live in southwestern vigrinia and I bet frank also has his share of rock.

While I have not tried to grow alfalfa all my neighbors say that it does not work. Soil is pretty acidic and alfalfa has very deep roots.

But your right for those that can grow alfalfa its the way to go.
Do you find that stand longevity is a problem? How many years can you go before you need to replant the stand due to weeds and thinning? Lots of folks claim that alfalfa is a lot more trouble than grass.

Fred

Frank,

Its a very simple sheet but if you would like send me a private message with your email and I will shoot you a copy.

I did not mean to deter you. Like the others have said the money is only one aspect of it.

You can get an idea of what people are asking for used equipment at:
http://www.farm-equipment.net/menu.jsp
http://www.machinefinder.com/

Fred

Actually you can grow hay anywhere. The problem is most people don't know how to grow it. Hay is very sensitive to the soil ph. Not necessarily the type of soil but the pH and nutrients. You have to have it all just right and it will grow. We grow alfalfa on some pretty poor soil back home.

It also depends on your seed. You really have to use good seed for good alfalfa. Most people don't spend the money up front and then complain because they don't get a good crop.

With regard to longevity it again comes back to how well you prepared your soil and how good of a seed you used. Typically with the right conditions in the soil and a good seed you can usually get 8 years out of a stand. Then you can interseed grass and get a nice alfalfa/grass mix for 4-6 years after that until it dies out.

As far as taking care of it alfalfa is easier to take care of than grass in my opinion. Alfalfa will outgrow grass and keep the weeds down much better than grass does. Yes you have to spray for weeds and bugs but that's the same with grass.

When you get ready let me know and I will go through the whole process of how to plant alfalfa right.

Doc,

I can see your point. I don't think the folks I have talked to went to a lot of trouble. Most of them are into minimal dollar input, so very little lime and fert was likely used.

Maybe next year I will try a small patch of alfalfa and see for myself. Thanks for the info.

Fred

We're in the process of re-establishing an approximately 80 acre hayfield that has been nutrient depleted for many years. Soil samples yielded an average pH of 5.0 to 5.3 so next week it gets 2 tons of lime per acre. We should end up between 6.2 and 6.4 pH. We'll start fertiliztation in early spring. It's been cut for "cow hay" the last ten years and the previous farmer leasing it did virtually nothing for the soil allowing weeds to become established by poor timing on the cuttings. We've owned it for one year to see the results. He's history. Our neighbor will cut/bale the hay now. Means I'll have to build a hay barn to store it for sale since we'll only use a couple hundred bales per year ourselves. Unless my wife grows the herd. The field's a mix of coastal bermuda and bahai grass. We'll probably get rid of the bahai in the next 2 - years. Alfalfa brings better prices but requires more constant water. May need irrigation here. I'll be looking into that next year.

It's not minimum input of time and money for sure. I'm doing a field right now and it is probably going to cost me $200 an acre to get it going for next year. $26 acre/spraying, $50/acre for lime, $25/acre for fertilizer and a minimum of about $100/acre for seed.

I'll be in almost the same boat in about two years. I'll have about 10 acres and a few animals. I wonder if anyone has considered loose hay for very small-scale operations? More to the point does anybody know anything about it? What did they do before balers? The word haystack is in our vocabulary, but does anyone still know how to make one that will provide useable hay in say February? I assume there’s more to it then just making a big pile.

I would like a cheap way to put up just enough hay for my use, and I wouldn't need to move it very far. I think the experience would be good for my son & me. By the way I'm in SE Michigan so I do have snow in winter.

They used horse drawn rakes to make windrows then a loader of sorts pulled by a horse that elevated the hay to a wagon where it was piled on loose.

I have a photo of my dad doing this on the farm, glad they came up with balers when I arrived [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

You still need to cut and rake it into piles or swathes, so the added cost is the baler over the sickle bar mower and rake.

It would be a life enhancing experience for you and your son I am sure..

Carl

It would be a life enhancing experience for you and your son I am sure..

If nothing else you would be in the best shape of your life after you were done. It's an incredible amount of work to do hay that way.

Richard, as you told me, and I learned for myself....It's an incredible amount of work to do hay the modern way also!!![img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

that is true it sure is Rich. But the way he's talking about doing it would take at least 10 times as long, or longer, to do compared to baling it with a tractor and baler.

But think of all that great exercize and fresh air! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

-Frank

Old haying methods.

Sickle bar mower, dump rake or side delivery rake. With horses the windrows were raked into piles and then gathered with a sweep [ skids on the ground with long forks to pick up the hay] The sweep then went to the stacker were it was pulled up vertically by the horses and then dumped. As the pile got to high the stacker was moved forward. The hay was then loaded by hand onto a hayrack and used as required. This was the hardest part of the job but still much easier than the first baler operations.

Next came what is called a "Farmhand". Esentially a loader with long arms for height that had a long toothed 8/10 ft forks. It would pick up the hay and drop it into a portable pipe oblong container with one end open. Then a stackmover was used to transport the small haystacks to the feedlot area. For feeding a movable steel pipe gate could be used to regulate the amount of hay the cattle could access. Another method on larger lots had the entire stack loaded and pulled forward where a sickle bar and conveyor belt would dispense the hay to a trough or on the ground.

All these old methods involved less manual work than the small square or round bales. Only when the large bales came into exsitence did this change.

For 10 acres makeing hay with a small tractor and loader altered to accept long forks there should be no problem.

Forgot to mention a buckpole for making stacks and the horse operated grapple forks used to transfer hay to the barn loft.

Egon