Stick welding

With all this talk about welding and welders, I made a trip to TSC and was looking at the Hobart welders (both mig and stick) when I noticed the welding rods. Upon inspecting them, I saw Aluminum rods [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img]

Has anyone had any experience stick welding aluminum instead of using a mig welder ?

Another question... I've noticed some welder specs show they they are good for 3/16 or 1/4" welds... Am I correct in the assumption that they are talking welds in a single pass. ?

Example Aluminum welders are stating 1/8" ... So if I were to to be welding a 1/4" I could use 3 passes to weld ? Or are they talking maximum depth (penitration) of the weld ?

The truth is, they are not speaking welder langauge,at least not my kind.When you are welding two pieces of metal together,you use as many passes as it takes to do this, i.e.,if you are welding 1 inch thick steel to one inch thick steel,by way of a beveled butt joint,and say you are useing 5/32 rod,its going to take you many passes to fill up the joint ,side by side and on top of each other,now as far as the machine,it will have to put out enough amps. to run that 5/32 rod,you can always turn it down to run a1/8 rod.It also depends on what postion you are welding,you can carry more molten metal in the flat postion than you can overhead,thus it should take you less passes.Unless you are doing something like surfaceing[building up the surface by running beads],you are not really going to worry about how thick your bead may be,you are going to run the amps needed for whatever sized filler you are using in order to make an acceptable weld.So worry about amps. and duty cycle when you plan on buying a machine,not how big a bead the machine might make.For instance,you can weld about any thickness of steel,from 1/4 inch[or less if you know what you are doing],to infinity,with a 1/8 dia. stick rod, the thicker it is the more passes its going to take,a 1/8 stick rod uses about 120 amps,+ or -,so you need a stick machine that puts out that much,than you got to worry about duty cycle,if what you are welding is in the infinity range,well you need something that will burn those 1/8 inch rods all day long,100% on the amps you need[in this farout case]. It works in the same manner with a m.i.g. machine. RICHARD GAUTHIER

Ok, you confirmed what I know, but when they (mfg) state 1/8" , 3/16" or 1/4"... Are they talking penitration at maximum amps ?

What about aluminum stick welding ?

I was looking at the Hobart 175 for $600 (not to mention the added expense of gas) and the Hobart stick welder at $250. I noticed that I will need Argon Gas to aluminum weld... But considering that I will need to weld 1/8" to 1/4" aluminum stock on occasions. I was wondering if anyone did any aluminum stick welding with any success ?

Like I said before,don't let that incorrect phrasing of it saying 1/4",e.t.c. affect you,the don't know what they are trying to say.READ what I said to you above again. You[if you can weld alu. with a m.i.g.]won't have any problems welding1/2" thick alu.,with most any M.I.G. MACHINE,YOU JUST MAY HAVE TO MAKE MORE THAN ONE PASS.You only want to weld alu. with stick,if you don't have a m.i.g.,sticking alu.is not all that easy and not as an attractive weld as compared with m.i.g. As far as penatration goes,you only need as much as it takes to make two pieces of metal one.As long as your weld is solid,no trapped slag,porosity,e.t.c.,and you have complete fusion at the edges of your weld to your base metal,it does not matter how far into your base metal you have burned,1/16",or1/4",you have made two pieces,one,and thats what welding is all about,basicly. I don,t know of any hobart stick welder for 250 dollars,new?It much not be much. Speaking of welding alu. with stick,I believe you need d.c. electrode postive to do that,most of those cheap buzz boxes only put out a.c. RICHARD GAUTHIER p.s I'm glad I confirmed what you [already know],huh,huh.

Richard, I know how to weld stick and the theory of welding... thank you very much.

What I don't know and lack any experience in, is Alum welding and/or mig welding. The welding (20 yrs ago) I did was with commercial welders and NOT these hobby boxes that is sold to the general public.
Now since I'm thinking of buying a welder for repairs and small projects, I'm trying to find something that will suit my needs without spending a $1000 for something that will sit in the corner most of the time. So since I have no experience with migs, I was inquiring about alum stick welding... if its even worth the bother. That is why I was asking what they were talking about with the 1/8,3/16,1/4"

I guess I'm going to be stuck buying a mig welder since I need quality alum welds (I'm sure it will take lots of practice on my part first) [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Also,you got to keep in mind that there are different kinds of joints,butt,tee,lap,and different kinds of weld joint designs,v-groove,sguare groove,fillit and many more.Now if you are running a fillit weld on a lap or t joint,you generally try to put a weld on that is no larger than the thinnest of your two base metals.You can use more than one pass to do this if your first pass isn't big enough,i.e.,1" plate to 1/2" plate,by stringing or by weaveing. Another thought,a certain sized filler metal,will only operate with acceptable results,within a certain range of amps. and volts,so you can take a 1/8" stick rod,0n a 1/4" plate,turn that machine up to about 180 amps. d.c.e.p,and you can make a very big hole real quick.Talk about penatration.Penatration depends on many factors,type of and how much current,type of filler,and when m.i.g. welding,one of the chief ways,is the type and mixture of shieding gas.Penatration also means different things,depending on what type of joint you are welding,if you are welding a pipe joint,with a v-groove prep.,than penatration on that joint refers to the inside of the pipe at the root[if you got it or not,how much,and if both inside edges are fused.].So when these welding machine litature descriptions say will weld 1/4" thick stuff,you see,it doesn't mean a lot in describing that machine.If you want a machine to weld both alu. and steel ,and you just want one machine, get a m.i.g. machine,with as much amps. and the best duty cycle you can afford,and hook up,[input juice wise].Yes you will need to change gas,wire,drive rollers and probably go with a different liner in your wire conduit,to weld alu. and then spend time setting up your machine after each time you change from steel to alu.,but that is the way it goes. RICHARD GAUTHIER

I'm sure you do know much about this welding stuff,it sure sounded like it to me anyways.How long you been driving trucks?I've been in this welding racket for about 26 years,SORRY TO HAVE INSULTED YOUR WELDING KNOWLEGE. RICHARD GAUTHIER

Richard:

I think there are many out there who have appreciated the welding knowledge you and some others have been giving in your posts.
There is a lot more than to it than strike an arc and run a bead. You fellows have been bringing this out for all our benefit.

Thanks.

Egon

Thanks egon,I'll keep pluging along every now and than,my advice on this welding stuff is free,and I don't do that to many other places. RICHARD GAUTHIER

First, I can be of zero help on the aluminum question. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

On another topic, though, I can tell you that I have a little Hobart 175 MIG welder which claims 1/4" and that refers to a single pass. In the case of my particular machine, it specifically states that in so many words--"Capable of welding up to 1/4" in a single pass." I would assume that's pretty much standard as the way they are 'rated.'

I would have to assume that aluminum is done the same way. I'm guessing that something listing 1/8" aluminum is referring to the ability to weld 1/8" in a single pass.

If you were to be welding 1/4" aluminum you could certainly use multiple passes with a 1/8" rated machine. You might be able to get it with three passes but, being the kind of guy who wears a belt with suspenders, I'd probably lay down six passes just to be sure. Just remember that with multiple passes (three, six, ten, fifteen, twenty-one... whatever), the first pass is always going to be the most important. That's the one that directly bonds the two pieces. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Just a couple notes on the Hobart 175 I thought I'd share with you. While the Hobart 175 Handler is a 220V MIG welder, you can run it on a 30 amp breaker and wire from that to your outlet with only 10/2 wire. I got this directly from Hobart and wanted to pass it on to you as most 220V welders require a 50 amp breaker and a heavier gauge wire to the outlet. While I don't think this is anything upon which to base a purchase decision, I thought it was something you might like to know.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Gary,......that business of running on a 30 AMP circuit as opposed to a 50 AMP is true when you go to wire feed welders. When I first got my Miller wire feed machine we were sharing a single outlet with the stick welder. One day I was in a hurry do do some wire welding and the stick machine was busy, plugged into the "welder" outlet. I took the Miller welder primary lead across the shop and plugged into a 20AMP outlet we had for the hacksaw, and welded for an hour or more on that 20 AMP breaker with no trip. Of course I wasn't really at the top end of the heat range, but still...... [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Regarding material thicknesses.......when you are welding two pieces of material, you have to be able to put enough heat into the area to "FUSE" the metal. No matter how many passes you make, if the material is taking the heat away too fast, you'll never get good penetration and a good joint. Remember that the FIRST PASS is the one that hooks to the parent material, if you don't have enough heat for that pass, you're screwed anyway. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I've run into this with stick welders; where the mtal was SO THICK that I couldn't get enough heat built up to really burn my weld in there like it needed to be. A large cross-section will transport so much heat away from your weld that you just cannot get the puddle to really be good and hot like it needs to be. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Multiple passes are only effective if you can "re-puddle" to a certain extent. Running beads on top of beads that aren't burned in sufficiently may not hold very well. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Excellent responses guys.. Thanks

Most all my questions have been answered and I've decided to get the Hobart 175 [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] However, today I was forced to buy a welding torch kit (on sale $99), a set of 80# tanks ($325) [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

A lot of the things I need to do are repairs which some invlove cutting and the couple things that need mending right now I believe I can braze (sp?) since there won't be any direct stress on it. However I will need a welder in the near future.

BTW Richard, I have been trucking in one form or another for 18 yrs and owned my truck & trailer for the last 7 yrs. (paid for). I do specialized hauling (machinery,equipment, military & oversized) on a dropdeck. So as you see... I'm not your average dummy.. LOL [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Dear Handy Plus Man,.....write these numbers on your shop wall: Cut: 40 Oxy & 8 Acet. Weld: 33 Oxy & 13 Acet. Those are the necessary regulator settings. One more tip....when using a rosebud, start with 33/13 on the settings, and then once the tip is going, open the mixer valves full open and regulate the flame by adjusting the tank regulators. If you have cheapie regulators or very small ones, don't be surprised if the Oxy frosts up a bit on big rosebud work. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] BE SURE to have backfalsh valves in the system. I like the ones that go out at the end of the hose......gives me something to hang onto while I adjust the mixer valves. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

I have never heard it explained in quite that way before there C.J., you be carefull out there. RICHARD GAUTHIER

I'm glad to hear from you HANDYMAN.I am aware of the fact that you are no average dummy.One question I have is what the hell does BTW mean? I wanted to know because I might want to use it sometime.Don't run over any little cars. RICHARD GAUTHIER

BTW = by the way

Dave,

That explanation of fusing the metals and getting them up to the temperatures needed to do so was excellent. I felt like I was reading a text of what my welding instructor told us. Thanks for saying what I should have. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] I'm still very much on the low end of the learning curve here. I knew it, I just didn't think to pass it along. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] It's probably just as well. Your explanation was far better than anything I'd have written. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

GARY,you are new to this welding stuff. RICHARD GAUTHIER

BTW BIRD,thankyou.See I'm learning stuff today. RICHARD GAUTHIER

CJDave, Your info is wonderful. Thank You.

The booklet that came wirth the kit recomended slightly lower psi settings (which I used) and noticed that the torch was not blowing as hard as I thought it should and the rosebud... wow, that thing was a trip to use..lol (never used one before).

It's been since the mid 80's since I had to do any cutting or bending, it plum wore me out today, but I got everything done that I have been needing done to my trailer for a long long time [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Tomorow I will attempt to repair the chain box on my headacke rack on the truck (alum). This should be fun.. LOL [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

OK, another dumb question...

3 welding / brazing tips... How do you know which one to use ?

I was plannig on using the smallest one with my Alum repair since the thickness is aprox 1/8" (maybe slightly less) thick. (corner bead)

I can't help you on the alum-nee-um weld question, but on mild steel and stuff like exhaust pipe, if you are using a tip that is too big, when you try and squeeze down the flame to where you can use it the tip will POP back and go out. THEN you go to a size smaller. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Now of course,as we already know,I'm not planning on insulting your welding knowledge,because we know that you are no average dummy.Smaller tip,less fire,less fire,less heat,so on something an 1/8",I'd start small,but alu.,untill it gets hot takes a good bit of heat,because it is a good conductor,I've mainly just m.i.g.ed it,some t.i.g.,never tried oxyfuel welding of alum.Plus you got to clean it good,that skin ,oxide,on it melts at a much higher temp. than the alum. it self,as does the shiny mill coat on steel,but on alum. this is even more important,power brush or heavy hand brush with aclean or new brush till you see the stuff coming off,also you might want to clean any whatever off it before brushing with alcohol.Than you'll just have to watch your heat because as you go the metal will get hotter,it would be nice if you had some scrap to practice on before you gobed up your truck,I know,I know,you are not your........ WATCH THEM LITTLE CARS. RICHARD GAUTHIER

Richard (dick), Can you every make a reply without being so Condescending ? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

I find it a real shame that a man with your knowledge would work so hard on showing his arrogance on here. I, as well as others here are getting tired of the holier than thou attitude.

Myself as well as many here, come here to learn and find answers to questions (tips) to make life a little easier..
Why are you here ?

I'm here for the same reason you are,truckdriver,to pick up on some stuff that I don't know,but every body else gives advice in areas that they are knowlegeable in.take you for example,your a truck driver you say,well if I ever need a question answered about driving trucks,I would hope people like you would answer it in the same kindly manner I tried to do with you,in the beginning about welding,something I happen to know something about,I don't do it for a hobby,just like you don,t drive truck for a hobby.Now if you want to have private conversations with whoever about whatever,there is e-mail,I would never e-mail somebody on this forum.But if your on here your words will be read by whoever and if they want to respond its afree country,right?Now, since I HAVE EVIDENTLY UPSET YOU.I promise never to respond directly to your postings again,but YOUR certainly not going to keep me from responding to other people whenever I got a mind to.got it? watch those little cars,your friend, RICHARD GAUTHIER

Actually, Handyman, that post on welding aluminum had some vital stuff in it. Aluminum is SO DIFFERENT from mild steel that it sort of takes people by surprise when the bar is warm so quickly TWO FEET AWAY from there the weld is. HEAT TRANSFER and CONTAMINATION are the two main considerations in welding aluminum. For example......you can go from aluminum wire to mild steel wire in your machine WITHOUT throwing away or at least exchanging the liner, whereas NO WAY can you go from mild steel to aluminum.....ther is too much iron residue inside the liner and that's just enough to foul the weld area. Oxydation, coatings of ANY KIND, and even aged stock can all be a problem in aluminum welding. Those were some good points that RG made there for you on that post. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Thankyou for the verification of some of the info. I have been trying to give away for a couple of months now C.J.,I really didn't mean to get any body flustered,but when I felt like I was being considered an idiot,or was bothering somebodies private chat line,I got a little p.o.ed,and let whoever know that,in my little way.For the record,I have been a certtified,[by many different organizations],pipewelder for 23 years,before that I started out helping on gas pipelines and related construction,did that for about 3 years,as soon as I got out of the army,in 1977.I have for the past19 years been a certified welding inspector through the american welding society.I am also a a.s.n.t certified level III in p.t. and m.t.,I have two A.A.S. degrees,one in welding management,and one in welding technology.Ihave been working for the past many years as a construction welding inspector,working in power plants,pipelines,chemical plants,e.t.c.Now I still have a lot to learn,and now I'm getting to the point where I've forgotten some stuff I have already learned once,but I don't consider my self an expert in anything,just trying to offer a little help where I can. RICHARD GAUTHIER

RG..... My moonguys... [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] .....think that you should "flesh out" your profile just for the heck of it. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] They always want to know who does/has done what. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Probably should,but I guess I already did, RICHARD GAUTHIER

<font color="blue"> GARY,you are new to this welding stuff. RICHARD GAUTHIER </font color>

Richard,

I really don't understand what point you're attempting to make here. In fact, yes, I am new to welding. I've even posted on that a number of times here and you've been aware of it for a while from another thread.

What am I missing here? Is there some subtle message I was too obtuse to grasp?

I guess so there gary,hows that downhill welding going?Thats the only way to run a bare wire m.i.g. in the vertical postion,no matter who tells you different.As far as what material to wear,wear denim,don't wear flannel,new or old.Wear you leathers when you need them,if you got anymore welding type questions,I would be happy to TRY and answer them for you, your internet buddy in west by god virginia, richard gauthier huh,huh

Richard,

I'm going to run a couple downhill beads and run the downhill welding deal by my instructor tonight (assuming I remember by then [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] ). At the very least I'm now curious as to how it'll compare. I talked with a neighbor who knows all three instructors there (he teaches electrical there) and he commented that all three are excellent welders but each is different in his approach and teaching. Maybe one of the other guys even teaches the uphill method.

On another topic, I now have a leather apron and a pair of leather sleeves. I intend to use at least the sleeves every time I use a welder. I still feel some pain on that section of my forearm I burnt. I'll probably use the apron most of the time as well. I've had enough little sparks land in my lap and leave little holes in my jeans already. I don't want a spot on my leg to match my arm. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

I'll probably still go with a flannel shirt just to cover myself where the leathers don't. I don't want to trust these leather sleeves to come up to the bottom of my t-shirt sleeves. A denim shirt might work as well but, while I have denim jeans, I don't have a denim shirt. (BTW, if you come across one in a 20 1/2" neck and a 39" sleeve, let me know where). The good news is that when I looked at my shirt when I had my leather sleeves and apron on I didn't see a single burn spot showing. Every place a spark has hit and burned was covered by the leathers. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

GARY,I forgot the fact that you are even larger than me,I'm about 6'3" and 260 and Istill have problems finding wrangler blue denim shirts to fit me,I wear a 19-36,and most of the time I've got to order mine through a store that can do that,but for the size you need I don't know.Now one more thing on that downhill,the reason I said that down hill is the way to go on that shortcircuiting solid wire,is generally speaking,when you use that process you are welding a thinner material,one maybe two passes,your not generally welding anything over 3/8" thick with it,although,if you do it right,you certainly can,On thicker stuff,with a bevel,you would probably use flux core or stick,and up hill is the more accepted method for doing that,Down hill you can carry less metal and travel faster,letting you weld sheet metal without burning a big hole,although you can weld 20" sch. 40 pipe with it as well,and do just as good a job as up hill,as far as making the two sections one if you know what you are doing,but on thinner one pass stuff in the vertical postion,down hill is the way to go.Now you of course start at the top,and point your guntip up a little,then side,slight pause,side,slight pause,if your welding sheet metal,just a fast single bead ,no side to side generally speaking,and of course you got to get your amps and volts right to whatever wire size you are running,about 120 amps,19volts for .035 wire. RICHARD GAUTHIER

One thing I haven't seen metioned here is the type of rod your using also determines the penitration. A 6010,6011,6013 will penitrate more of the base metal with the same heat as compared to a 7014 and a little more than a 7018 all other things being similiar.

What I typically do is to run one (or 2) beads of the 6013 rod, then if the weld still needs filled or "pretty'ed-up" I'll run a pass or 2 with the 7014-7018.

The key to getting a proper weld is to have good penitration into the base metal of both sides of the joint. This creates a solid, no cracks, or occlusions in the joint. Some of the fillet weld will add strength to the joint, but mainly it's the first pass that bonds the two peices together and provides the base for all future passes.

Will a weld hold if not a perfect weld... very possibly, would you want it to hold a nuke reactor together.... maybe not

Too much heat can be as bad as too little heat.

I think what gauthier is trying to say, is that stick welding is as much an art as it is technical procedure. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

gary

I think GARYS been miging in this class of his,or at least I thought so,but I agree with what you are saying. RICHARD GAUTHIER

You're right, Richard. This is a MIG welding class. Last semester I took arc welding and we worked with 6011, 6013, 7018 and 7024 if my memory serves me correctly. I do know that it was four different rods and our final was to create one piece that had welds on it with each of the four. You could have it almost done, mess up and have to start everything over... kind of like real life. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I didn't really appreciate the reason for taking ARC welding first (it was a prerequisite) until I started this MIG welding class. It was only then that I really appreciated what I had learned there about what actually happens when a weld is being made. Without that background, I doubt I'd have developed the appreciation for a good MIG weld instead of just one that looks good. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]