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Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Due to the overwhelming number of requests I have received (1 so far but I sometimes overwhelm easily) I am inaugerating this thread about the T O Y O T A P R I U S...
I have one on order and intend to take delivery soon (we hope). For those of you who haven't seen last months 12 page ad in PopSci and haven't used MapQuest lately (mapquest shows you how to navigate from A to B and then tells you how much $ you would have saved if you drove a Prius.
Our color preference is in priority order but not using their cutesy color names is: the light metallic pearlescent green, silver, gold, white. Skipping red and black.
A white one with our trim package (9 different trim packages) is due in soon and the dealer will try to swap with another dealer, if possible, for our prefered color. Well take the white if no other is available.
We were quite pleased to see the improvements that had been made ove the previous model. It is now a "lift back" with no barrier to getting groceries in and out. The back seats are a 60/40 split and fold easily forward individually or together to increase rear storage. The back seat is bigger and more comfortable than the CR-V or the Forrester.
I opted for the navigation system and no key needed entry and startup. It also will have fog lights. Yes you can get fog in Oklahoma. I drove in considerable fog in the mountains just last Sunday. It has the HID headlights and an indash 6 CD changer and premium multi-speaker audio system. It has "Blue Tooth" system to integrate an appropriately technology enabled cell phone.
My test drive was a very pleasing experience. It is surprisingly peppy for a 1500cc 4 banger (something to do with a 200 volt Nimh battery and an electric motor.) The tech whizkids at Toyota's intergalactic design headquarters increased the size and weight of the car while simultaneously giving it more power and acceleration AND higher fuel mileage than the prevuous smaller version. Still sounds like getting 10 lbs in a 5 lb sack.
More later, film at 1100. P.S. Gary, I know folks who are still waiting for color TV to be perfected before they buy one. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
So what exactly is the item you are claiming FACT or FICTION?
Talking about the Prius brings back memories of my 1984 CRX which claimed 51/67 mpg. I typically got 53-55 mpg on average, and 63 mpg when I drove exlusively on the highway.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I got to drive a 2003 for a little bit and liked it. Not a muscle car, but pretty good considering the way it sips at fuel. Looking through the brochure I received in the mail makes me want to get one.
It's going to take me approx 37 gallons of fuel to drive to and from work in my Expedition at 13.5 MPG. The Prius at 58 MPG would use less than 9 gallons. At $1.45 per gallon, I'd save $40 a week on fuel. I could almost make a car payment on fuel savings alone. And that doesn't count the "cool factor". OK, maybe there's no cool factor.
How would you feel about turning the Prius over to a valet parking guy with no instructions?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I know they haven't been out long, but is there any data on the hybrid drive systems in general, as to reliability or major problems? I see that Mazda is also bringing back the rotary engine. At least, I think it went away for a while and is now re-emerging. Nice to see some experimentation. Do you think the hybrids will take over, at least until a fuel cell vehicle is available?
Chuck
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Pat; you mentioned TV. Whats that?
Egon
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
GAtorBoy, Gas mileage, I guess mostly but now the story has begun to take on additonal fictional possibilities. A call to the dealer today reveals that they don't know for a fact that we will get a car, or if we do when it will be. It seems there are allocations and the vehicles trickle down the distribution chain. they have exactly what we want except color is not first choice (still acceptable) but can't sell it till they have had it for 90 days. It is placed by Toyota into some sort of rental status and cant be sold for 90 days. Sort of a demo thing.
This whole deal just keeps getting stranger and stranger. And it isn't just this one dealer. The one we test drove at another dealer was in this "rental" limbo.
There is an annual quota that Toyota intends to mfg. Something like 1/3 of it is already sold (just not delivered.) They produce white cars first then move on to other colors. Apparenty, Toyota's intergalactic headquarters decides when and if a dealership gets product and the dealership is NOT in control.
You'd think that if the demand is outstripping supply 6:1 they would put on another shift and make some $. Folks won't wait forever before going for 2nd choice which may be a different brand.
Late breaking news this PM was that our selected dealer has a December allocation for the color we want but the trim package is not known yet.
I'm getting real close to putting them on a deadline to produce a contract with a VIN for OUR car or giving our deposit back and moving on. They said they fully expect a lot of people whoi what a Prius to be put on allocation for the '05 build.
Too weird, if I didn't really want one of these I'd tell them to defecate or remove their hindquarters from the porcelin receptical. I still may.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Gary, If your commute is mostly highway cruising then 58 may be a bit optimistic.
Cool factor? I think turninig it over to a valet with no instruction would be cool. Especially if you left it "booted up" (running?) First he woiuld think the engine died because it wouldn't be running the gas engine. Second, after you told him to just step on the pedal and it will go, the valet would spend a lot of time looking for the ignition switch, which isn't used and if he found the backup ignition key hole there wouldn't be a key in it.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Chuck52
http://www.priusonline.com is a good place to find Prius info.
Toyota has been making the Prius since at least 1999, maybe longer.
Didn't Mazda always have a rotary in its RX sporty car?
Hybrids are here now and practical. Fuel cells or xxx or yyy, or cold fusion may come later but you can buy gasoline pretty much anywhere you can drive.
I predict lots of hybrid vehicles, including SUV and light truck. I also predict domestic brand hybrids (Toyota is selling lisc to Ford.) Eventually maybe perhaps fuel cell vehicles willl become economical to manufacture with acceptable performance AND fuel will be made convenient, safe, and with wide availability. Meanwhile, as we wait for those conditions to be met, hybrids are ready now and their fuel is easily availble. What I can't predict is how long the window of opportunity will be open for hybrid before getting meaningful competition from fuel cells or xxx.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Pat,
Congratulations on your choice of vehicle. Hopefully your car will show up. Perhaps you should take the one that is a different color? Idon't think fuel cells will be around anytime soon. Where is the H2 going to come from?
Rich
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
If they don't have the one you love, love the one they have?
Two white ones. One has WRONG accessory package and the other is a rental that they can't sell for a couple months.
H2??? Cold fulsion will supply free electricity to make H2 cheap.
OR check out the attached diagram. Let me know if you need help with the last box/process in the diagram. I won't be able to help you, I just want to know if you have trouble understanding it.
Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
About 6-7 months back, one of the TV stations here in St. Louis had a story about a fellow in nearby Illinois who had developed an energy unit that consumed aluminum plates and delivered electrical power. He supposedly was running a vehicle on it. Don't remember any of the details, sorry about that, but as aluminum is one of our most abundant elements it might hold promise.
I guess it might not be a "fuelcell" but does anyone know any more details?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
as i recall readying the toyota gets better milage in the city then on the highway. so for me the vw tdi is a better deal, and there is not wait to get one.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I'd be interested to see if it has the same reliability as the other Toyota products. Sometimes big tech jumps mean more bugs. Sooner or later, we'll all be driving something other than a 350 chevy, so I'm hoping they've got the bugs worked out.
Steve
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Pat,
There was a Wall Street Journal article in the last couple of days
that listed the number of days a car sat on the lot before being
sold. The Prius was the quickest seller off the lot.
I can't remember the exact number but it was a week or so
before the car moved off the lot. This was really fast compared
to other vehicles.
Soooo, I would think if Toyota is moving them that fast there
are likely some areas of the country where people might be
paying MSRP+ and cars are going to move to those geographies
first. But that is just a guess on my part.
Later,
Dan McCarty
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Had mine for nearly a year. Averaging around 47mpg, sometimes lower sometimes higher. But MPG is not the only reason I went with it. It's also a pretty nice little car overall and would do it again in a heartbeat.
So what do you think is a myth?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
When I tried to preorder one in October they wouldn't budge off of list price. Not even $500 on a $22880 list. Did you find that to be the case when you bought yours?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I bought just before the gas prices when rocketing to $2.25 (southern California). I got a great deal for a little over $19k, which was quite a bit off list. They had 3 on the lot and said they were slow sellers. Now, there are none on the lot even though gas prices are back down to a skimpy $1.80. :-)
I have gotten 58+ mpg in heavy city traffic. Of course any car can get 100 mpg if the hill is long enough... it is the trip back up the other side that gets you. I live in the hills and it is actually quite peppy and a pleasure to drive in steep terrain. The electric boost gives it a lot of torque. The CVT transmission is probably as big as an adjustment for the average driver as the electric power. I also have CVT on a quad, so I knew what to expect.
I still average around 47mpg when I'm doing 80mph+ on the freeways. The worst mileage is when my wife drives it 2 miles back and forth to work. It never has time to warm up and mileage drops into the mid 30s.
(Valets seem to have no problem... I was concerned at first, but Toyota has done a good job at making things seem normal)
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
kOKOPELLI, If Consumer Reports magazine had liked the VW more, i.e. their guality and freq of repair hadn't taken a downturn in recent years, it would have been a strong competitor. I don't have a problem with diesel noise, smell or "polution" but I was a tad dissapointed by their slip in the ratings. I would love to have a diesel Rabbit 4x4 pickup but not to fill the Prius slot. I took a good serious look at the diesels but didn't select one.
I would have liked to get one of the Mercedes diesel powered Jeep Liberties but there were a couple obstacles in addition to availability: 1. again the quality and frequency of repair, not the engine but the rest and 2, I was told by my trusted Dodge/Chrysler connection that the diesel Jeep would be orphaned soon as the emissions standards already on the books would shut them out of the American market in a couple years. I didn't want to own something not likely to be widely supportable in the out years as I generally keep vehicles as long as they are economical to maintain irrespective of their age if they remain reliable and safe.
Are you saying the fact that Prius gets better mileage in the city than it does on the highway is why yo don't want it?
It still gets over 50 on the highway and most folks will drive in town part of the time.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
well for me i only have 3 stoplights on the way to work. so i have no city drive. plus modified tdi's have been known to get well into 60+ mpg. there is also that fact that my long time buddy owns a vw dealership.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
there is also the fact that damlier and i believe chevy have canceled their hybrid programs because they can get a 40% increase on mpg by tossing in a diesal verses the 30% increase then they can get with a hybrid right now.
as for the liberty, my girlfriend is looking at that, and from my understanding mercedes already has an engine in the works that will meet the emissions standards coming out. toyota, honda, and chevy (i think) already have engines that can meet the new standards, so i am not too worried about that. i loved the liberty i had, but the 16mpg highway really stunk. as long at you stay away from the auto tranny you would be fine with the jeep. i really used mine for work. i had it for just under 2 years and put 80+k miles on with with no problems, just changed the brakes before i turned it in. with the abuse a work truck gets, i have no reservations buying the diesal version.
you are right about the issues on the tdi's but as i said my buddy owns the shop, so that didnt really concern me.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
What is a myth? A thought provoking catchy inclusion in the title of the post.
Is the advertised mileage a myth. Do you get 60mpg?
Is the car being for sale a myth, I can't seem to buy one, yet.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Back in 1984 when I bought my Honda CRX, some dealerships were jacking up the price, but I was able to buy mine at list. I waited 4 months for mine. They only shipped 1 to 2 cars a month to each dealership.
Sounds like Toyota is doing the same thing with their Prius as Honda did with the CRX.
From what I'm reading, my CRX (gas only) got comparible gas mileage than this hybrid thingy. I would think these hybrids should get closer to 100 mpg.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
kokopelli,
Modifications to the TDI? How do I find out more?
Rich
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
http://forums.tdiclub.com/categories.php
there is alot of great stuff on that forum. there are some die hard tdi lovers out there.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
40 years ago my 1962 MG Midget got 37 city, 42 hwy. Would run at 80 mph all day, and gas was 25 cents a gallon. Where's the progress?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Yep, Stan, my first new car, a '62 Austin Healy Sprite, got about 38 mpg, but pulling my dad's 16' boat would pull it plumb down to 26 mpg. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] And it usually drew a crowd at the launching ramp watching to see if I was going to be able to pull that boat out. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Bird:
How did you ever fit into a Sprite or did you have a late growth stage?
Egon
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Slamfire:
Lots of progress!!!
That hood compartment is so filled up it needs a PHD and computer just to find out where the sparkplugs are. And just think of the miles of wiring and multitude of chips to ensure that the sparkplugs keep sparking.
And then think of all the energy spent making all the wire,chips etc. and think of progress.
Egon
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
How did you ever fit into a Sprite or did you have a late growth stage?
[/ QUOTE ]
Very late; especially the last 5 or 6 years. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] I only weighed about 175 pounds back then.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I didn't start growin' until my family did. I was 156 lbs. the day I got married. I blame my Dad, he told me cookin' lasts, kissin' don't. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
don't want to swing this off topic but in regards to where does the h2 come from? Anybody that gets farm show magazine may recall a couple issues ago about a guy in Alberta that designed a hydrogen generator that produces on an as needed basis. currently being tested on diesel highway tractors. I think this is maybe the ultimate answer as every household could have a diesel hydro generator running 24 hrs on water, your vehicles and tractors could operate on water. Could you get anything cleaner or more efficient than that?
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I agree with gatorboy and slamfire. Where is the progress? The CRX gets 10 plus more miles to the gallon and only on gas. There are several cars that perform in the 40 plus mph range. I don't get why this car is so popular and with a much higher price tag and potentially way more problems than a regular gas car that gets the same mileage? When I was in high school we had a Toyota diesel pickup my grandpa had traded for a horse. That thing would easily do 40 plus on the highway. That was over 20 years ago. My brother used to have a Chevy Chevette when he was in college that was a diesel and he'd get 50 plus with it on the highway.
The new generation diesels have better emissions than a 4 cylinder gas motor. My new Ford pickup diesel smells like french frys. You can start it indoors and never even get a diesel smell.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks MPG has been stalled over the last 20 years. I have a 2000 Saturn that gets 30 mpg typically looking for a new car today and that is on the high end! I think the Prius is a good idea but I'll need a lot of convincing to take the plunge. Resale is a question in my mind.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
First of all... I don't work or have any associations with Toyota. I'm just a happy Prius owner who started looking for a new car and wasn't considering the Prius until I drove it. I actually didn't like its looks, but my wife loved it and I was impressed with everything else about it.
I've owned both a diesel VW and one of the first Honda sedan's in the country (2 cycle twin-cylinder with 10" wheels). Both got great gas mileage on trips. But I think everyone is missing the point if you are only considering the gas mileage. It is also a great little car and fun to drive, comfortable, super quiet, roomy, climate countrol, peppy, touch screen controls, super low emissions, etc., etc.
Also, the Prius get better gas mileage in traffic than on the road which is where everyone is comparing mileage figures. I happen to spend a lot of time in Los Angeles traffic, so it was important that I have a good stereo and the 50+ traffic mileage is a bonus. Maybe they should rate cars at GPH (gallons per hour) for the LA area.
Actually, if you consider the cost of gas (even at high prices), you need to drive a lot of miles to justify paying just a couple thousand dollars more to get extra mpg.
It is not a car for everyone... in fact I have several other vehicles for other reasons. My pickup get less gas mileage, my tractor has a diesel, my other car is....etc. Each serves a purpose for me.
When something better (for me) comes out, I'd be the first to take a look. Fuel cell looks promising, but just isn't here yet. All electric never made it to a point where I felt I could use it.
But I wouldn't take anyone's word for it. Just take one out for a test drive if you can find one. It may not be your cup of tea.
I leased the Prius because I was concerned about the technology and resale, but the longer I own it, the less concerned I am about either. Right now, I wish my 3-year lease was up so I could buy it out and sell it to someone who doesn't want to wait for one (at a profit). I would then probably order the newer version that came out this year.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
I lived in LA county for 33 years and worked for the LADWP for 30 of those. If you like the car, I'm happy for you. I wouldn't worry about resale value of any car you can't buy for MSRP prices. I had a lot of fun in that MG, but finished out my career with a Ford Ranger pickup. Suited my altered lifestyle better. I just don't think the added cost could be recouped viz a viz some other vehicles currently legal under CARB restrictions.
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Pat,
I ordered my '04 Prius today! Red with the "AM" options package. Yeah, had to pay list price, just like my 240Z back in 1970.
Delivery should be February-March timeframe. If another unit comes in with the AM package and the person decides not to take it they'll give me a call.
Drove it about 20 miles on the demo drive, some hiway some traffic. Lot's of pickup. I'll need to learn to watch the road and not the energy management display!
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
CONGRATULATIONS Gary, Glad you didn't let your emotions get in the way any longer. The later you get in queue the later you get served and the wait seems to go up in a non-linear fashion. It looks like an additional week prior to getting in line can mean more like a month waiting to get served (approx).
Sorry, I don't have the options codes memorized and misplaced the Prius literature so I don't know what the AM is. We are getting a Package #9 (factory package) and I don't know what we'll get as port/dealer options, if anything.
Everytime the topic comes up in conversation or just in my mind, I can't help recalling the scene in "Fargo" where the car salesman is trying to badger an old couple into getting the "SEALER". There isn't much of anything non-electronic that the port or dealer could add to the car that I couldn't get better for less somewhere else and electronic items too, maybe.
Red, huh? A ticket magnet? Remember "stealth mode" does not refer to your RADAR or LASER crossection. Well, it is good that OTHERS drive red cars as it helps attract unwanted attention away from me as I... S-T-R-E-A-K by.
There is some good info (and some near useless chatter) available at http://www.priusonline.com/ There is both a Technical and General seection. I have learned a lot there from owners and well informed buyers who like us are just waiting.
There are some "Classic" Prius owners (pre-04) who post and lend a historical perspective. Lots of real world experience on various topics such as short life of OEM tires and lots of other stuff. You may have to engage your narrow band BS filters for some of the posts to drop out a lot of misguided green tree hugging pseudo-religious enthusiasm but all in all it is worth a scan.
Again, congratulations, I hope you have a short wait and a long satisfaction.
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Pat,
I'll check out the link you provided. And my last two vehicles have been red, so this makes number three. No tickets or problems with any of them, so maybe red's my lucky color.
Package AM is number 7 It lacks the navigation system and I think the anti theft system. Has the HID headlamps and most of the other stuff.
Now all I have to do is wait, and I'm not too good at that. Must practice. Since these Prius get better gas milage in traffic, when I'm stuck in a jam instead of gettin mad I can just consider I'm saving money!
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Gary, I know you know I was just kidding about the red ticket magnet. You aren't the total wild and unconcerned about safety kinda guy that attracts tickets.
While you are sitting in traffic, unsure of when it will move again, you will ot have to wonder if it would be good to turn the engine off or not because the car will do the right thing for you. It should be a thing of beauty. The decision making that is right the vast majority of the time is encoded in the software and you don't have to concern yourself with what is essentially "house keeping." Like a good intuitive WYSIWYG Iconic computer interface, PARC's mouse and icons, that Apple stole and sued Microsoft for infringing as contrasted with Unix or earlier versions of CP/M or Microsoft DOS or HeathDOS or...
I don't want to have to think about lowlevel "housekeeping" decisions when using a computing appliance or when driving a transportation cannister. Early cars had manual timing and mixture controls for the driver to adjust to conditons as needed. Now computers adjust for air density and lots of other things several times a second and we drivers don't have to think about it any more than we think about our firing order or fuel air ratio to drive to our destination.
My take on Prius is that it is another step forward in beneficial automation that results in greater economy. Yeah, they give us a computer screen so we can see some of what is going on but it isn't so we can realy do anything about it. It is just for info if you care, not for action. Like the automated cameras that I have called COMA cameras because you could operate one while in a coma, these are almost coma cars.
I mean this coma car thing as a compliment. I believe that smart engineering should be incorporated in a way that it can be leveraged and reused over and over without much need for additional effort to be expended thinking about how to manage energy flow to reduce gas consumption. If you do want to do something yourself to contribute operationally, place the shift switch (switch not mechanical linkage to transmission, no real transmission, not even a CVT, just clever use of a planetary gearset) in B for braking while coasting down a hill and clever you, you got to do something for yourself, not unlike puting a car in D instead of D with an O around it. You can make a difference, you can participate...
Pat
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Re: Toyota Prius, Fact or Fiction
Yesterday the saleman told me the "B" is to lock it into battery operation. Now you tell me it's for Braking. What's the story here?
You're corrrect about the housekeeping aspect. The software, if well written, should do a better job than a mere human could do.
I remember years back a friend called the folks working the registers at places like MickeyD's BIAs. That stood for Biological Interface Adaptor. They converted your order innto a form that the computer could understand.
The B2 bomber's a good example of your housekeeping. The pilot has not got direct input to the control surfaces. He tells the computer what he wants to do, via the stick and pedals, and the computer adjusts the surfaces as required to get the desired result.