Advice; first REAL truck

Hi all,
We have a little homestead and are looking for a truck to do hauling of firewood, machinery snpwplowing and to pull up to a 14,000lb. GVW. trailer. Comfort is not a top priority, this is to be a truck to do work; we have cars to go places in.
I am trying to make sure I get the right sized truck and also to compare across brands. I am wondering if the Ford 250, the GMC Sierra 2500, and the Dodge Ram 2500 are all about the same thing and if they will be able to pull that sized trailer and hold a cord of wood assuming we had the right body on it. Are these trucks too light weight. I am looking at tnn year old diesel engine equipped models as being maybe within budget and not too worn out.
Advice appreciated, Thanks! Mark

Instead of the 250/2500 series trucks (which might do the job but I doubt it), I'd definitely only be looking at the 350/3500 series with dual rear wheels. Then of course you need to consider not only which engine you want, but which transmission, and what rear end gear ratio.

I've hauled half a cord of firewood on 3/4 ton Chev. and Dodge trucks, but no way they'd have handled a full cord.

A cord of wood is not going to fit in a regular 8ft pickup bed. A big rick is about it. You could get there with a flat bed and stake sides. I don't know what a cord of wet wood will weigh but you may be overloading even a 1-ton truck's payload. I have a 3500 Dodge and about 4700lbs payload with about 14,000 trailer capacity.

For a ten yr old diesel I would be looking at a Dodge or Ford.

If you just need a work truck, a used medium duty truck is a better value and will have probably outlast several 1-ton trucks.

I don't know about Mass. but here in TN our registration fees are based on gmvw ratings. One thing you might be suprised about is the fees associated with the one ton trucks. Check with them before you decide. Then again, a 14.000 lb trailer requires a lot of truck. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Thanks for the replies. Looking around at what people are using and at the want ads today I had pretty much come to the conclusion thatthe lightest trucks that will be useful start in the 3500 series.
Now, several questions...
I realize that not all of these 3500 trucks are remotely equal, aren't they all going to come with the same basic suspension (weight rating) and hauling abilites? Are some of these trucks rated at LESS than one ton?
I have heard good things about Cummins diesals and Alison transmissions. I know nothing about rear ends other than that if i don't watch my eating mine will grow. Any particular reason to avoid GMC trucks?
I also see a lot of large box trucks of all brands but especially Isuzu and Mitsubishi going very cheap. arent't a lot of these pretty heavey rigs? Just playing around with the idea of turning the box into a shed and buying a dump body for one...
Is 14,000 really a lot to trailer? that is about what my 6500lb tractor, and a decently heavy trailer weigh. I also wonder where I can find an estimate of what logs and cordwood of a given size and species weigh?
So many questions... thanks, Mark

<font color="blue">( Is 14,000 really a lot to trailer? that is about what my 6500lb tractor, and a decently heavy trailer weigh. </font color>

If your 6500 lb tractor and trailer add up to about 14,000 lbs., then that trailer you have must weigh about 7500 lbs! That is one heavy trailer.

I have a 20' equipment trailer rated at 12,000 lbs that weighs about 2000 lbs. So when I put my 7400 lb. Bobcat on it, I am pulling 9400 lbs. To me, that is one heavy load -- I would not ask my K3500 to pull much more than that.

Trailer Towing Chart for Super Duty F-250/F350

Maybe you should look into the Ford F-450 or F-550 for what you want to do with a truck.

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I know nothing about rear ends

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They are expressed in a numerical ratio (revolutions of the driveshaft to one revolution of the wheels). The larger the number the more power you'll have for pulling, while top speed will be lessened and fuel economy may be lessened. In other words, a 4.10 rear end gives more pulling power than a 3.73. Depending on make and model, you will probably find trucks with a 3.20 to a 4.86 rear end (although some of them vary even more than that).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
an estimate of what logs and cordwood of a given size and species weigh

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Species and degree of dryness will cause a considerable variation, but a guy in the business once told me that "good" oak firewood weighed approximately 3,800 pounds per cord (a cord being 8' x 8' x 4' neatly stacked, or 256 cubic feet).

Is it safe to assume that you also know that the "one ton, 3/4 ton, or even half ton" ratings are a bit misleading; the actual payload capacity is usually at least 1.5 to 2 times that rating?

I know nothing about the Mitsubishi trucks, but I've had a little experience with the Isuzus and they're good trucks. They, and the GMC, can be had with either the Isuzu diesel or the GM gasoline engine. And you mention the Allison tranmissions. I think they're very good, but again, is it safe to assume that you know there are quite a number of different model Allisons (different number of gears, different ratios, different shifting characteristics)?

Bird,
It's not safe to assume I know ANYTHING! Thanks for the info. Re load rating, my cord wood here tends to be mixed maple birch and ash - a bit lighter than oak. So I hope a one ton will cover me. Would all 350 series trucke be rated at one ton or are some heavier or lighter?
Re trailer, I may be getting myself in (mental) trouble here because I had hoped I could get a one trailer does everything dump trailer that has ramps for loading the tractor and removable sides to let me haul manure, dirt, logs - whatever I can think of to stuff in there.(they do make them) Someone at a local equipment dealer thought that the 36" deck height of one that i had looked at was unsafe for carrying a tall load like my tractor Maybe this is unrealistic to do with the size truck I can afford, that is haul a 12 or 14 thousand pound GVW load. I can conceed on that one :-)
Trannies, I have heard bad things about some of the automatics and always have prefered standards anyway but that's as much as I really know. Kind of heard the Allison makes a good one, but of course there is more to it than that. Hey, thanks folks for your advice - hopefully I am learning!

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Would all 350 series trucke be rated at one ton or are some heavier or lighter?

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All the 350/3500 trucks are usually referred to as "one ton", but of course the payload capacity is different for one with dual rear wheels vs. single rear wheels. And the GCVWR (gross combined vehicle weight rating); i.e., the total maximum recommended weight for the truck, trailer, occupants, payload, etc. will vary depending on which engine, transmission, and rear end it has. Of course, sometimes "overload" springs are added to increase the weight capacity as long as you don't exceed the capacity of the axles, tires, wheels, etc. Payload may also vary depending on whether it's a standard cab vs. extended cab vs. crew cab; i.e., as the weight of the truck itself increases, the payload may decrease.

If you were looking at new trucks, all the manufacturers have charts showing the payload and/or towing capacity of the different combinations of body style, engine, and transmission, and while they may vary from year to year, looking at the charts for new ones will give you a fair idea for the older ones, too.

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So I hope a one ton will cover me

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Just for a couple of examples: One of my brothers used to have an '86 one ton crew cab dually Chev., 454 gasoline engine, 3 speed automatic, and he hauled 5,100 pounds of drill bits from Anchorage to Prudhoe Bay with no problems. Right now he has a '95 Ford crew cab dually with the Powerstroke diesel and pulls a 37' fifth wheel travel trailer that weighs over 16,000 pounds.

You can pull a much heavier trailer if it's a fifth wheel or gooseneck than you can with a conventional trailer.

In '88, I was pulling a 32' fifth wheel that had 2,500 pounds on the pin, plus about 500 pounds of tools and such in the bed of the truck. I did that with no problems with a one ton Chevrolet (single rear wheels), but it had a 350 gas engine and 3.73 rear end, so I was not entirely satisfied with the performance, and upgraded in '89 to a one ton with dual rear wheels, 454 engine and 4.10 rear end. It had the 3-speed automatic and pulled the trailer just fine, but then I added a Gear Vendors overdrive that gave the equivalent of a 3.20 rear end and let me run on the highway at lower RPMs on the engine.

The allison transmission has only recently been available in the chevy/gmc pickups, maybe since 2000 model year? In a medium duty truck I was thinking more along the lines of a 5500-6500 chevy/gmc or an international. Like what you would see on on of the large penske, ryder, u-haul rental trucks and some of the small dump trucks and the lumber delivery trucks. Quite a few of those around here for sale in the $7,000 to $10,000 range. The isuzu and mitsu might be good trucks if the weight rating are sufficient. Maybe Gary in Indiana will chime in, I beleive he has some good knowledge of these class of trucks. If you could find a little dump truck and get a 12,000lb bumper pull trailer that would be a nice set-up.


In a ten year old truck the Chevy/GMC diesel 6.2 and 6.5 was the worst of the big three. Wouldn't be my first choice unless price was right. Personally, in a Chevy/GMC P/U of that age I would be looking for the 454 with a turbo 400 trans and a 4:10 rear end. That will still probably be a little short for 14,000lbs but would handle 9,000-10,000.

Like Gatorboy said for tranporting a 6500lb tractor a 12,000 or 14,000 lb low deck trailer is going to weigh 2000 to 3000 lbs. I have a 18' gooseneck flatbed utility rated at 12,000lbs and the empy trailer weighs almost 3,000 lbs. If you are looking at a trailer with the deck over the wheels, you can still haul the tractor but it will have a higher center of gravity. You will see the 580 case backhoes hauled like that on a tandem dual trailer with about a 20,000 lb weight rating. Just takes care to realize you can't drive it like a sports car or even a empty pickup truck.

Gary

<font color="blue"> (a cord being 8' x 8' x 4' neatly stacked, or 256 cubic feet). </font color>

TYPO/MATH POLICE 128 Cubic Feet

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TYPO/MATH POLICE 128 Cubic Feet

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Thanks, Al. Believe it or not, I can still multiply [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] , and I multiplied what I typed correctly; just typed the wrong numbers [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] . Should have been 4' x 4' x 8' and then, as you say it's 128 cubic feet. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] My double cord would really be heavy for a one ton truck, wouldn't it? [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]

I've got a cherry '93 F350 DRW diesel. Last year of the non-turbo, simple maintenance and repair. First year of the 90's body style, looks good. With 5-speed transmission that model is alot of bang for your buck.

Bird, next time I'm shopping for a good deal on cord wood I'll look you up. In the bad old days I hauled
many a cord of wood on my 66, F250. Needed side boards to get it all on. I think trucks had a lot more margin then. My new truck 73, F250 puckers up pretty good, but I still do it.

Al, we bought our first house with a fireplace in 1972 and I had a 1971 3/4 ton Chevy at the time. I was about a hundred miles east of Dallas one day and noticed a house out in the country with firewood for sale, stopped and bought half a cord of good red oak for $10 and they loaded it for me! That half a cord was just about right for a comfortable ride. And I later hauled all I could pile on (without sideboards) a 1977 Dodge 3/4 ton truck several times. But I would not have wanted to try a full cord on either one.

Hey Bird, From your days as the long arm of the law, I'm sure you remember that the fines can be pretty steep for hauling 2 times your rated load. And here in the northeast, they are very tough about that. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]


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Is it safe to assume that you also know that the "one ton, 3/4 ton, or even half ton" ratings are a bit misleading; the actual payload capacity is usually at least 1.5 to 2 times that rating?

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The State of Wisconsin says that one cord of white oak weighs about 5850 pounds! The source was their Timber Sale Handbook located at Timber

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one cord of white oak weighs about 5850 pounds

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That is considerably more than what I was told by someone in the business! [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] Of course, I never weighed any; just assumed he would have a pretty good idea, but the State has probably investigated that more thoroughly.

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fines can be pretty steep for hauling 2 times your rated load

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True, but the manufacturers' rated loads (GVWR) are nearly all (if not all) higher than what we generally refer to as half ton, three-quarter ton, and one ton trucks.

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here in the northeast, they are very tough about that

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I've no doubt there are exceptions somewhere, but during my tenure in law enforcement, the city police (in Dallas at least) had no scales and did no weight enforcement. And I've never personally known of anyone being cited for such violations except commercial vehicles, although I suspect it has happened.

Bird, I stumbled across this which shows the green and dry weightof a lot of different wood.
<font color="blue">manufacturers' rated loads (GVWR) are nearly all (if not all) higher than what we generally refer to as half
ton, three-quarter ton, and one ton trucks. </font color>

My 73, F250 was available from 6800 pounds to 9600 GVWR, all 3/4 ton trucks are not equal.

[img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] Al, that shows dry red oak at 3528 pounds/cord, so I guess the guy who told me "about 3800" wasn't so far off after all. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

I have hauled 13,000+on my trailer behind a 3/4 ton dodge,TOO MUCH! About 7000 behind a 3/4 ton is about right. As far as the wood thing I have hauled a full cord 4x4x8 of dry redoak on the 3/4 ton in the pickup box,you have to stack it right,it has to be just above the cab and all the way back but i'tll haul it just fine. If trailering is the main function then go with the one ton,the dual wheels take the sway out of the trailer and the brakes and wheel bearings are a little heavier,engine and transmissions are the same.

Well my needs are becoming a bit more defined as I stumbled upon a used 10,000gvw equipment hauler/dumptrailer yesterday and brought it home. It's a nice design, 6.5x12' and with 4' removable sides , tailgate that swings both ways,and loading ramps stored underneath. It weighs 2900lbs so with my tractor that comes pretty close to the GVW. I realize that for the # of trips I am making with the cordwood I can deal with the pain in the rear of manuvering the trailer and get a truck without the capacity for the weight of the cord and without a dump. So now I am leaning toward finding the most heavy duty 3/4 tpn 4x4 (maybe a flat bed) I can afford that will tow the trailer well. Maybe a Ford 250 with a diesel and extra heavy setup for towing. I have heard a lot of complaing about both GMC and Dodge.
But I have to say that I see more gmc work trucks in that size locally than any other brand. Must be a reason? Mark

Buying a truck... not an easy task.

Start with how much you have to spend... then go from there.

Based on what you said here I don't think you will be happy with what is considered a light duty truck, anything 1 ton and under. It will always not do something you need it to do or it will cost more than its worth to get it to do that without breaking.

For $7500 or less you can buy yourself an old miltary truck 2.5 to 5 ton diesel with all wheel or 6 wheel drive unit. It will NEVER let you down. It will pull anything and haul anything and goes down the road great. I had a 5ton 6-wheel drive unit I bought several years ago for $3500. Came with a winch on the front and 10 new tires. I have never been stuck and its only not started once... operator error.

A friend of mine was so impressed with this truck he finally bought it after borrowing so many times we started calling it his truck.

A relative of his bought a dump version of the same truck. Considering what I used this for I'd consider buying the dump version myself too. I borrow it from time to time.

I have a 77 Chevrolet 1-ton dually and there is no comparison. The 5ton did what you think you can do with a light truck and it will stay together.

Good luck.

Hi
I was wondering where I could find one of those 5 ton trucks you speak of. I also have a 1 ton chevy dually ext cab. but would also like to have a dump truck and the 5 ton sounds about the right size, and the price is about right also.
thanks charlie

Here is some info about:
1. GSA auto auctions

gsa autoauctions provides info concerning GSA controlled auto auctions.

You can get on their mailing list announcing sites/dates/available inventory for these auctions. Generally speaking, these are normal vehicles (cars, light trucks, etc). However, some heavier duty trucks may appear from time to time. I have purchased old pick ups at these auctions reasonably. On the other hand, really good looking vehicles tend to go for high book prices, not necessarily cheap or a bargain.

2. DRMO auctions. Defense Reutilization and Marketing Offices handle all DOD equipment auctions. Main offices are located nationwide. Good website listing all of them is:

http://www.state.oh.us/odps/oles/GRAPHICS/map33.htm

For Lazy: I would be looking at Ft Leonard Wood for 2.5 T trucks, dump trucks, etc, as they train Army Engineers and have to get rid of their equipment on a scheduled basis. Can't tell you which DRMO office to contact, though, because they list only one at Whiteman AFB for Missouri. Assume they are the office for all of Mo, but don't know. There is also a DRMO at Scott AFB, IL also.

3. Last site: http://www.olive-drab.com is a site that lists dealers who purchase from the various govt surplus auctions and do resale of stuff.

Hope these links work out. Not sure if I figured out the URL business on this editing program TBN uses.

.

I bought my 5 ton from a private owner I found on the Internet. I looked at dealer sites and equipment auctions, but the prices were based on the what they thought somebody who bought would be able to make using it, or what they might make if they sold it, which was much more than it was worth.

I worked on these when I was in the military in the 70's. My preference is the 5 ton unit made in the mid to late 70's. The one I had was a '75 5ton, a GM made unit. The owner lived in Louisville so I took a commuter and checked it out. Cost me $600 to have it delivered to my driveway. The previous owner bought it from a military auction. Ran perfect. Started using it the first day it arrived. Its known as the Beast around where I live.

I'd search the 'Net for military vehicles for sale and of course ebay. Back then about the only thing ebay was good for was toys and car parts.

Keep in mind any 1 ton truck is not a dump truck, these things were meant to pull stuff, especially the dually's, not see how much stuff you pile in the bed before the tires went flat or locked inside the rear wheel wells. Loading them up like that is one good way to wreck a nice truck.

Later