Running electric to pole barn

I have a pole barn about 180 feet from my breaker box in my house. I want to run electric to the barn to run a compressor and misc. tools, maybe a small welder. I need to run it from the house because it will be much more expensive to have another line run from the pole, new meeter, etc. I get a VERY good price break 8 months of the year for having an all electric home. If I put a new meeter on the barn, I would have to pay a much higher rate and at least $15 a month in admin charges.

That said, I have a Wadsworth breaker box in the house which has one open slot. I am looking for someplace to steal one more slot so I can put in a double pole 60AMP breaker. That will be my supply for the barn.

Now the questions [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Question 1: In the barn, do I need a "main lug" or a "main breaker" breaker box. My understanding is that the "main lug" box doesn't have a main breaker in it and would rely on the 60AMP breaker in the house to act as the main for the barn. I'm thinking I would want a main breaker in the barn, maybe for code compliance, but also for when the breaker does pop, I can reset it right there without a trip to the house [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] I just don't remember seeing a 60A main breaker box the last time I was at the box stores, I'll look again.

Question 2: After some research, I was thinking the wire size should be 4AWG copper to reduce voltage drop to a minimum and to carry the 50 amps. Does this sound right? Also, if that's the right size, what do I look for exactly, is it 3 or 4 seperate wires, all in one, etc? Is copper the best choice for this?

Question 3: Do I need to run it in any kind of conduit? Or just bury it? How deep?

Thanks for any help!!! I have been trying to figure this out from reading other stuff on and off line. Just when I think I know what I need, I find something else that makes me second guess myself. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Chuck

There are a lot of people on this board who are a lot more qualified to answer your questions that I am.

However, until they answer your questions, I will give it my best shot.

You should have a main breaker box in the pole barn.

You mention 60 amp and 50 amp, which is it? If you are going for a 50 amp #4 would be the correct size. If it is going to be 60 amp you would need #3. This would be for 240 volt. You would need four wire copper.

To bury the wire, it would have to be the type suitable for ground burial. Conduit would not be required.

The burial depth would have to be a minimum of 18 inches.

Your local code may vary so this should be checked for compliance.

Chuck,

Not an electrician but. . .

Had the exact situation myself. Pole is on South side of house, about 30 feet from south-facing wall. Cable enters house underground into crawlspace and up to load center which is fairly centrally located in the house. The pole has a 200 amp main breaker on the meter panel. House has 200 amp breaker on the load center. Wire from pole to load center, as I recall is 1/0 aluminum.

I spliced at the connection in my house panel using grundy clamps and connecting just below the set screws for the load center bus bars. I ran the wire back down from the panel, through the crawlspace to the North side of the house toward my workshop. I used 2/2/4 aluminum wire which is rated for outdoor use, but in my case, I trenched to 18" and ran the wire in 1" PVC conduit.

In the workshop, I used a 100 amp load center, obviously with a 100 amp main breaker. I never did check the ampacity tables on the 2/2/4 aluminum to see if it had a 100 amp rating, but rather took the building supply vendor's word for it. I run a rather large single phase 220v welder (rated at up to 72 amps input current at rated max power). I'll never use that much current, but my outfit is wired safely and functionally. We don't have code in this county, so safe and functional works for me. Some places have strange requirements on ground wires, sub panels, and such when feeding detached buildings.

If code is an issue with you OR if you don't fully understand what you're doing, make sure you get help from a qualified electrician. It'd be a bummer if you burnt the place down.

Good Luck!

Dave

Thanks Dave! I meant to say 60A breaker. I found one online yesterday and ordered it. Wadsworth breakers are somewhat hard to find at local stores.

So #3 copper it is, but I'm still confused as to what to ask for. Will it be one cable with 4 connectors, or will it be for seperate wires?

Also, do you know if the #3 wire will fit into the 60A breaker? I remember looking at a couple of breakers the other day and I don't remember them having a BIG connector...

Thanks again for the help. I'll definately check the local codes to be sure, good point.

Chuck

Thanks Dave (other Dave) [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

I'm kind of curious... if I understand you right, you connected the feed for your subpanel directly to the bus in the main panel, without a breaker? [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] I didn't know that was an option, also not sure what a grundy clamp is? Any pointers for more info on these?

So, does it connect before or after the main breaker? If this is an option for my project, it might actually work better for me, especially since I am going to have to work hard at finding another open slot... I'll have to dig into this a little more.

Thanks!
Chuck

A couple of months ago I had a similar situation: I had to power my new barn 850 feet from my meter. After some discussions with helpful people at ID Electric, a local electric supply store, I decided to rent a trencher and burry a #2 (Stevens) aluminum wire in the trench. No conduit. The cable connects a 60 AMP breaker at the pole and a panel with 3 20 AMP breakers (for now) at the barn. Works like a champ.

What you will need is a cable that comes with four wires in it. One should be black, one red, one white and the ground. As far as fitting the breaker I could not tell you if it will or not.

I haven't seen too many breakers that fit into a residential 200 amp box that could handle #3 wire. Make sure the breaker you have purchased can handle #3.

If I needed 60amps I would install another box off the main feed that was more like a junction box with a large main type breaker...

Joe

As I said I just did it. I used 3 wires, one black (live 1), red (live 2) and green striped smaller wire (ground), this will give you 220V. You can tape 110V or 220V from it.

I bought 60A breaker for 220V (dual switch) at HD, fitted nicely into the main 200A panel and connected the big 2AWG live wires with no problem even though the 2AWG aluminum wire is about the thickest you can get.

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I'm going to step in and tell you what Inspector 507 would probably say if he posted to this thread. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] THE PROBLEM here is that the house panel is NOT A DISTRIBUTION PANEL. That is to say that the lugs that are available to plug a breaker into were never intended to take that kind of load off the bus in one whack. The household-grade panels like to have three 20-AMP breakers hooked to three lugs rather than one 60 AMP breaker hooked to one lug (one lug per leg). [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I just could not tell you how many "hot spots" my Infrared Camera has revealed; hot spots that were caused by "bootlegging" a heavily-loaded branch circuit off of what was basically a residential-grade panel. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] If you can figure out a way of taking current off that panel by attaching to the main bus and then going to a 60 AMP disconnect, you'll be beter off. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I just cannot for the life of me remember what a Wadsworth breaker has for a bus connection. Some styles of bus connections will let you get away with murder, and some will just burn down at the least amount of abuse. If your breakers are held on by a screw, that would be very good, and it's the only way you would be able to get by with taking a large feed like that off that panel. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] LUCKILY, shops don't normally have a high sustained load; it's just those pesky air compressors that seem to do such a good job of burning down marginal power supply systems. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

I will have to respectfully disagree with you on this one Dave. If they never intended for you to pull 60A off the buss in one whack, why do they make the breakers that allow you to do it? And how would you get enough power to run an electric range, which will probably be close to the load he wishes to supply?

If you go with aluminum wire, make sure that all your lugs are rated for aluminum [ AL ]. Most newer breaker/lugs are dual rated for both aluminum and copper [ AL/CU ]. Also, be real carefull not to nick the insulation on buried conductors. Aluminum will not last long if exposed to soil moisture, but use the same care with copper. Apply an anti-oxidation coating to the wire prior to inserting into the lugs, and be carefull not to overtighten the lugs. HomeDepot sells Ideal Noalox in small tubes for 2-3 dollars.
I have a 200 amp panel in my barn and I ran about 80 feet to a 100 amp panel in my home. I put 4 conductors in the trench, an extra conductor just in case. For fire disconnect purposes, I ran to an outside box/breaker on the outside of the home, then into the home panel. It's always a good idea to check with your your local inspector first and see what makes him happy.

Thanks for all the ideas. I'll try to take a couple of pictures later today of the service panel with the cover off.

I'm also going to Lowes or HD today to price out a new panel for the barn. I won't buy it today since I won't need it for a while, but just want to get an idea. I'm still a little confused about whether I can get a main breaker in 60A [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Just some quick background, right now, there is just a little 10/3 line run to the barn fed from an outside recept on the house. It's enough to run a couple of lights and a power tool or two, but I was never happy with the way it is set up, and I want to do it right this time around.

That's why I'm asking SO many questions... I truly appreciate all of your time adding your $.02 worth [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Chuck

I've seen 60's. But most breakers go 40,50,70, & 100.

Thanks JKlender, does that mean I can buy a 100A load center and put a 60A main breaker in it? Is the main breaker in these load centers the same as a regular breaker, or are they special in some way? If I can't find a 60A, maybe I can stay with the 60A in the house, but use a 50A in the barn. Probably still enough for what I need, and would assure that the main in the barn would pop before the one in the house that feeds the barn?

Thanks Again!
Chuck

There are lots of kinds of main-breakered 'load centers'. Some have breakers that can be swapped out, and some don't. I wouldn't worry about it having a main, unless your inspector asks for it. The breaker in the house will protect your underground feed and the loadcenter. As far a you putting a 50 in the barn and a 60 in the house, you could flip a coin about which one would trip first. Might as well go 60 in both. And if you buy a loadcenter with a 100amp main, just leave the 100amp breaker in it and use it for a disconnect.

Ok, sounds good. I got mixed answers about whether I needed a main breaker in the barn or not. Guess I'll have to check the local codes. Thanks again for your input!

Yes you need a main, or some sort of disconnect, in the barn.

Chuck,
Let me try to answer all or most of your questions here in one post.

Pick up a 6-12 circuit sub-panel from Lowes, HD or wherever. Also get a 50 or 60A breaker to use as a main in the barn. Get a ground bar to put in the sub-panel as well. You'll need a grounding electrode at the barn too.
IF you had a total load of 60A in the barn (which I doubt you'll have), I'd run #4 copper. Total load of 50A, I'd run #6 copper. That will still be just a 3.7% voltage drop. You can get 6-3 w/ground UF at Lowes. No conduit needed, but I would anyway, that's just me.
#6 copper is rated at 55A, and since that is not a standard fuse size, it can be rounded up to a 60A breaker. Plug the 50-60A breaker in and feed it with the wires from the house. There needs to be a "hold down device" installed to keep the main in the panel.
If you have any other questions let me know. I am in Central Ohio too. So if you're close let me know if you need hands on advice.

edit......
You can also e-mail me at this screen name at Yahoo.com

Thanks Jerry, I sent you a message at your yahoo address as well. Quick question on the sub-panel. Some of them say "main lug" and others say "main breaker". Can I buy one that says "main lug" and put a main breaker in it?

The reason I asked, is most of the ones marked "main breaker" already have a 100 or 200A main breaker installed.

Thanks!
Chuck

Chuck,
You could get one that has a 100A in it if you want. You just need it to be a disconnecting means and not overcurrent protection. Just make sure the right size breaker is put in the house to protect everything. I would go with the Main Lug and get the 50A if it was me.

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I just don't know what to say Inspector except that the manufacturers of household grade electrical panels are not intending them to be used as "distribution gear". Yes, I realize that you can stab a 100 AMP breaker anywhere onto the bus, but that is not actually what was intended. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I try to never use a main panel that has a plug-in breaker to put the current ONTO the bus because I am looking for a much bigger "footprint" to transfer the current without making heat. A bolt-in main is so much more secure and the Infrared Camera usually shows me that it is. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Yes, some electric ranges do pull high current off of just two bites, [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] but the theory is that the householder will not use every burner on that stove very often. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] A customer called me to check out a small three-phase panel in their maintenance shop and what I found was that they had crap-canned their TWO very worn out SMALL air compressors and went to ONE NEW BIG ONE. They were pulling off a 40-AMP breaker and a 20-AMP breaker originally, whereas the new compressor was a single 60-AMP breaker. Of course the bus system could not deliver that kind of current with just three bites on the bus where they had SIX BITES previously, so the panel was in the process of burning down. They had to make changes THAT VERY DAY to avoid a work stoppage due to lack of air. It's the same old story......current needs "footprint" in order to transfer from one device to another, and unfortunately, not all bus systems are capable of delivering the PER-BITE current that we would like or really need to have. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

I highly recommend that anyone wishing to do electrical work, spend the small amount of money, and humble thyself, and go talk to your local inspector. There are reasons why they want you to put in a 42" foundation for a new home, and the same for the electrical code. Sure, there are lots of easier and cheaper ways to do things, but you get what you pay for. Contact your inspector, pretend he's your wife, and blindly follow his wishes, no mater how stupid it sounds. Most inspectors are not ego nuts, and will be glad to give you a hand and helpfull information. You will also live a happier and safer life. No, I'm not an ex inspector. But I am an ex electrician.

Good info JKlender

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] That's some good advice, JKL. If you look in the code books those little rules were not put there to inconvenience anyone, but to PREVENT BURNDOWNS and PREVENT INJURY. It is truly amazing how casually some folks approach electrical work, and electricians see it every day when they make service calls to homes where: "I get a tickle when I touch the kitchen faucet!" is the complaint. Usually it's some kind of egregious error in the way the electrical system is installed, and it's a miracle that no one had been killed ....yet. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Thanks for the advice CJDave (and all others) who suggested I run things by a local inspector. I appreciate the concern. Trust me, I want to get it done right, that's why I'm asking so many questions (100's of them) and taking so much time. My background is in electronics, so I understand most of the concepts and I'm not a complete dummy with electricity. I'm mainly just not familiar with all the terminology and codes for home wiring. With advise, to me, this project still seems within the reach of a DIY.

The barn has power right now to run a couple of lights, a small compressor, etc. But it's NOT done right, small 10/2 wire buried about 10" tied into an outside receptacle at the house, sharing a 20A breaker. Better than a 150' extension cord, but still needs to be redone. That's why I'm spending the money to fix it, so I can sleep at night [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I'm going deeper than needed, using bigger wire than required, using conduit when not required. I probably spent way more on a lot of stuff than I needed to just to make sure it was bigger/better than required.

I have the utility companies coming out to mark their lines this week before I dig. I don't think I'm anywhere near the electric service, we have no gas, sewer, or water lines to worry about. So it's mainly phone and cable TV that I need to dodge. I'll be upset if I cut my cable, don't really care about the TV, but I'd lose my internet connection as well [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] I will be checking into permits and inspections today. If I feel a tickle when I touch the faucet, I'll call for help [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Actually, that might be a good thing in the shower... might help get me going in the mornings. Just kidding!!!

When you get your trench dug, it doesn't cost much to lay in a 1" electrical PVC pipe in case you want to add phone or security wires in the future. Just a thought.

Good idea, because as soon as the grass grows back I'll think of something else I should have put in there [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]