Natural Gas vs. Propane

Hello again,

My wife and I are planning to break ground in early spring on a 2800 sq ft ranch with unfinished full basement including walkout to the north. We will have radiant floor heating tubing laid in the basement floor but won't install the boiler/water heater... until we finish the basement in the future.

The basement will be block foundation with 2x6 framed upper walls and will be "energy star" rated for efficiency.

I don't know what propane would cost to install, but I just figured the cost for trenching in the natural gas line to the road. My cost will be approx. $4200. I will be speaking with the HVAC contractor soon and will ask to compare to propane. I have no experience with it's efficiency or the ongoing costs or the hassle of having the tank filled periodically.

Are they pretty equal in terms of heating my home?

Leef

Leef, I've had a great deal of experience with both natural gas and LPG, and either one will do the job just fine. Personally, just for the convenience, I'd much prefer the natural gas, but I don't know what the cost difference would be.

They will both work eqally well and use the same basic equipment.

Due to the pysical characteristics of propane[ heavier than air] I'd vote for natural gas.

Cost difference may be an undeterminable item and may vary from year to year.

Egon

Due to the pysical characteristics of propane[ heavier than air] I'd vote for natural gas.

Leef, My 2 cents on this topic is that as mentioned propane is heavier than air and will settle to the lowest level. What this means is that should there be a gas leak the propane will settle in the basement making it a much more dangerous situation should the gas come in contact with a source of ignition. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] On the other hand natural gas will rise and hopefully exit the building, (if there is an exit). I've have propane in my current home, and my previous two homes. I've had full basements in both (Maryland). I do not have the choice between natural and propane. The good thing about natural gas is you never run out, but at the same time you are stuck with whatever the supplying gas company wants to charge for it. With my propane tank (which I bought and is buried in the ground), I can shop around for the best price. I've never run out of propane. My supplier has different billing and filling options that might work for you. Some charge a year in advance to fill the tank and you get a slightly, and I mean slightly better price [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] than trying to buy propane this time of the year. I purchase propane usually in later August or September. I keep an eye on the propane tank and if the gauge indicates it is very low I'll personally call the company and have them come out to fill it up. In the past, when fuel was cheaper they came out every so often and automatically topped off the tank (which is 80% full to allow for expansion). One sticking point with shopping around for propane is that if you decide to switch to a different propane company THEIR service technician will want to come out to make sure your gas tank, connections, etc. are safe, at a cost of $75 or more. Soooo, we've stayed with the same company for several years and they are pretty competitive. Good luck in your decision. Stanley [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

Leef, forgot to mention, like Bird said, you will be happy with both. I've heard that natural gas has a slightly higher BTU factor than LP.

Leef, A walkout basement in Iowa with the walkout on the north side! That is a pretty interesting approach. You might want to consider a decent slab on the outside of the walkout with hydronic heat for snowmelt.

...but what do I know, my walkout is on the south side.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] If I wuz you, I would install black iron piping during construction and go propane in the beginning to save the cost of trenching. If you later decide that natural gas is better or cheaper, you'll have the kind of plumbing that can accommodate it. Switching from LP to natural gas is easy if the pipes are right. Modern gas detection systems and good piping will help mitigate the risks of using a heavier-than-air gas for as a fuel. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Pat,

I expected you to pick up on the north facing walkout [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] . What can I say, that's where the view and the terrain mandate. Thankfully, the woods may act as a wind break and we'll insulate well.

I'll be able to post pictures once we break ground in April.

Leef

Leef, The first thing that came to mind was an underground building at a university in Minnesota. They installed a "picture window" in it. It is actually a LARGE non-rotating periscope. It was supposed to relieve stress of folks being so far underground. It turned out that it was mostly used at lunch time. Folkswould run out to the lobby to look at the window before going to lunch. This was to see what the surface weather was doing!

You could build a huge periscope so when you look out of your SOUTH facing walkout you are actually looking towards the north at the superior view.

I know what it is like to have to compromise because of a view. I turned our project a bit clockwise to enhance a view of a large pond so our main axis is not quite E-W but is close enough.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, I am seriously thinking of adding a PERP-is-scope to the "stealth" shop that we are building in a former corn crib. Our goal is to have no outward sigh of occupancy; let along SHOP occupancy; and so far we have accomplished that goal. Even the A/C condenser is hidden. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] We are preparing for the day when the progeny of the folks; who came to Iowa illegally to cut meat for less than a living wage; will mature and become the super-predators [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] that their cousins in California are; and will subsequently be going out into the rural countryside to burgle unlocked houses barns and shops. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] We have a great workshop in the works, but I would like to have a window with which to monitor the outside world. A periscope-window is a great idea! [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

Dave, A couple (three or more is better) two axis gimbled remote controlled camera mounts with a commanding view of the area of interest and a few other gadgets and you could have your own semi-automated (or semi-autonomous) area defense system. Shaft position indicators like used on NC mills and such can serve as digital inputs to a procesor of moderate capacity (cheap used laptop) to generate a "bogey's" position in 3space. If you should expand the surveilance sytem's function to include remote weapon entrainment and firing then for liability reasons you need a MIL (Man In the Loop) because of the precedence set by the farmer up in the Dakotas who was sued by the guy who broke into one of the farmers buildings several times until the farmer rigged a shotgun to the door. The crook prevailed in court while the farmer lost criminally and civilly.

There is reltively affordable image monitoring software used for security purposes. If something in a video image changes more than the user selected threshold then that constitutes motion (potential intruder) detection. This gives your motion detector sensors the range of a camera, i.e. essentially unlimited so you can detect motion at a distance like a person or vehicle on your driveway or in a field or...

Concerns for liability (or squeemish considerations for what if...) turns some installations to the use of sub-lethal yet useful deterents. Water cannon, high intensity spray of dye, odorants, etc., sonic deterents, audible and ultrasonic, can be quite effective. Strobes and bright flashing green laser devices temporarily disorient but have some contrast problems in bright daylight.

The possibilities are nearly endless and with some ingenuity and scrounging ability the cost can be controlled well.

A small demonstration system comprised of a motion detector unit canabalized from a security light, a water control solenoid from a discarded dishwasher (check your red neck neighbors's yard) and a rain bird type sprinkler will give you a basic system that will detect an intruder and turn on the sprinkler. Be sure to put the motion detector in "TEST" position so it will work day or night and limits the spray to about 10 seconds anfer the intruder is out of detection range. Note: Aiming and adjusting the sensor can be separate from the aiming of the sprinkler.

The first of these I built kept dogs and cats out of my landscaping and trained the letter carrier to stay on the sidewalk and not cut across the yard and go through a hole in the hedge I was trying to get to grow closed.

As for connecting this post to the topic, any of the above can be powered by a generator fueled with natural gas or propane.

Warning - Read This Disclaimer:

These comments describe the construction of a potentially dangerous device, using products for something beyond their intended purposes.

This is an unproven design and could cause bodily harm. Any person that reproduces this design does so at their own risk.

These coments are for entertainment value only. The above information should not be viewed as instructions.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, you've given me several good ideas; ideas which couple to the amazingly low-priced camera systems now available. When we build our new master bdrm suite it will have an array of monitors for the purpose of scanning the property. They have cctv setups now that have four images on one monitor and so forth so it's all pretty well worked out. A cctv might just be the real answer to having a view out of our otherwise windowless shop. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I would prefer a 12 Ga., of course, for security but Jacoby & Meyers would have mobile units on the scene just minutes after the wounded dirtbag called 911 [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] One of the setups that worked best of all for me when we wuz in Kalifornica was a little red tool box which looked as though I had inadvertently left it outside the shop on a little sit-down bench. Under the tool box was a dead-man switch that was held open by the weight of the box. The switch flipped up and closed the circuit to a latching relay which triggered the alarm. Even pushing the switch back down or ripping out the wires would not stop the alarm. That setup paid dividends FOUR....count 'em.....FOUR times when thieves who were going to break in succumbed to temptation and picked up that nice little red box. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Dave, The typical split screen and or rolling multiple monitor set up requires someone to watch the monitors or else it is pretty useless. Software to monitor your monitors is a neat thing. It can monitor the video images and alert you only when something changes on one of the images enough to exceed your selected threshold. For example you have cameras 1, 2, 3...N with their feeds to your computer. Software monitors the images for changes that exceed your set-in threshold values. When one of the feeds meets your set limits then that feed is brought up on the screen and an alarm lets you kow something of interest may be on camera X.

This is doable. Monitoring multiple screens yourself is NOT A GOOD THING. Of course with X-10 technology and similar you can turn on a flood or spot light to illluminate the area covered by the camera in question. At night this can give the illusion that a person hit the light since it can happen with the intruder way farther away than a standard security light will work.

Your little red box had a different punch like than I expected. I thought maybe a fence charger!

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] In CA the big thing was for Mexicans to steal batteries for their "Low Riders". I've had a couple stolen and one of the things I wanted to do was drain one all the way down and then recharge it in the opposite polarity so it screws the electronics in the "host" vehicle. Of course the "donor" vehicle would have to have fake battery cables. Either that, or have some wierd army surplus battery that had like 32 volts and would scramble their computer. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] You can see that I have laid awake nights thinking about how to get even with the boys from south of zee bordair. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Dave, Lighten up man, these folks are just a stroke of the next Democrat president's pen from citizenship! (If they aren't there already.)

I once went to the parking lot of the yacht club when I lived on my sailboat and couldn't start my clasic vintage '64 Ford F-100 because someone had removed the battery. They didn't take it (at least not permanently) it was sitting upright and unharmed on the ground. When I got out to look under the hood I found it sitting under the front bumper.

If you are a glass half empty guy then they got spooked away before getting away with it. If you are glass half full then they borrowed it to start their car and brought it back. I had a lot of that red greasy stuff on the battery terminals to avoid corrosion and they got plenty on them as evidenced by all the prints they left. In the dark they probably didn't notice.

The bad news about getting a bit carried away is that THEY know where you and yours are located and you have no clue who THEY are or where THEY are. You need some good intel before you act and so you can act on their turf. Short of a physical confrontation that justifies your use of lethal force, I can't think of an advisable sceanario to employ on your premises beyond intel gathering. It isn't that I can't think of plenty of "THINGS" to do it is that escolating the situatiion with unknown opponents who know where to find you is not altogether clever.

I advise you to do what I do. Go the extra distance to avoid confrontation but if unable to avoid then do the right thing. In your situation, I'd recommend gathering intel to use later rather than confronting or "prank playing."

Of course that is just me and your mileage could vary. I am also waiting with baited breath to see if Oklahoma's "Make my day" law passes. Then the body need not be in your house or on your property. A clear deterrent to those who would wrongfully assault others. If the law isn't a deterrent then the actions it exonerates will be.
+ + + + + + + +
OKLAHOMA CITY – Oklahoma's current "Make My Day" law protects citizens who use deadly force in self-defense against someone who has invaded their home. But a bill filed by state Rep. Kevin Calvey, R-Del City, would allow Oklahomans to use deadly force in public places if they believe they are in danger.

House Bill 2615 would provide a citizen using "justifiable deadly force" with immunity from criminal prosecution or civil action. The bill, which resembles Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law passed in April, would declare that a citizen does not have the obligation to retreat from danger but may "meet force with force … if force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily harm or the commission of a forcible felony," Calvey said.

It looks good to pass in Colorado too. Sorry about that, denizens of Kalifornia. Maybe Ah-nold will protect you. You aren't allowed to protect yourselves.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] My experience with burglaries is that the best deterrent is to provide a means by which they can self-abort the mission. Provide some kind of distraction that will entice them to take a detour from the usual M. O. and "inspect" something that turns out to be just a pre-entry "Trojan Horse" alarm tripper. That setup has worked very successfully for me since greed is usually a significant component of the burglar psyche; they just can't resist that "one more thing". [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Pat, there is no way a law that makes so much sense will pass. I expect most on this board would practice that not withstanding the law, you know the old " it's better to ask forgivness than permission " adage.
It's hard to beat good neighbors, and have a job that let's you be in and out at all times of the day also so no pattern exists, OH and a double barrel 12 helps. Later, Nat

The x-10 software that can read input from those cameras via usb will take actions that you define based on motion detected....so I think you could set it to page you, email you, call you, whatever, as well as probably turn on lights via another x10 device, etc.

The problem with a lot of those cameras are they take a LOT of light to function, unless you get the newer more expensive ones with the low light boosting ( infra red or somesuch ) capabilities.

One warning though, I have a set of these cameras, the range is VERY limited, about 25 feet for a decent image max. I am sure that is dependent on what materials the signal is passing thru and any outside interference as well.

http://www.x10.com/cameras/cameras_wireless.html

They have some integrated with motion sensors and floodlights, those could be fun. =)

Dave, I got it the first time. It wasn't lost on me. I see the value of the technique and would use it myself when appropriate. It is not far from the mark of the FANTASY anti-thief device. A color TV or a small toolbox filed with plastique and wired to detonate when the TV is switched on or the tool box opened. The thief would most certainly take either to a place of seclusion and either try the TV or cut the lock on the toolbox. Even if the thief took the TV straight to his fence that wouldn't be a bad thing. In concert with overhead assets (sat imagery) you could plot the appearance of craters and generate statistics on the demographics of the thieves and possibly fences.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Nat, The double 12 is great for looks. A street sweeper in 12 ga 3 inch mag with pistol grip and extended tubular mag is much to be preferred. Mine came with interchangeable stock and barels. Mossberg, don't recall the model number but it has never failed to function and it didn't cost an arm and a leg as some brands would have.

I have a sling on it that allows it to be carried over your shoulder hanging with the buisness end pointed straight down and the whole thing alligned with your spine. It does not interfere with spin casting or flyfishing. Flyfishing, you do have to remember to not wade in deep enough to submerge any of the important parts. I originally bought it for bear protection while fishing in Alaska in potential unwitting competition with bears, for just in case. Never got within a few hundred yards of a griz (that I know of) I am glad to say.

Now that I have it, I can see its utility in certain "home defence" sceanarios but mostly it just sits (or hangs) until I get the urge to try wing shooting with it. Not nearly as easy to hit doubles with as my Wingmaster but still a fun challenge.



[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Pat , just the sound of jacking 1 into the chamber would scare the crap out of me, and I don't skeer easy. I know they use to sell the mosberg 20 Ga. with the interchangable grip and stock. I started to buy one but they don't make it anymore so the one you have is solid gold, guard it and it will guard you. Later, Nat

Nat, Hmmm, I don't think I ever saw it in 20 ga, just the 12 ga like I have. Yeah, the sound of a pump shotgun action cycling, empty or otherwise, especially in a dark quiet enclosed space that reverberates the sound a bit makes your spider senses get all tingly.

I doubt there is a perp anywhere who hasn't heard it enough times in movies to not have it engraved on the core patern matching area of the sound processing module in his brain. Close runners up for second place to my thinking are a 1911 Colt .45 action cycling and bringing my .44 mag single six (Ruger Super Blackhawk) to full cock. The Ruger is not so loud but has a distinct signature, a sound that makes you go HMMMM as Arsenio Hall used to say.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Actually, Pat, the new sabot shotgun slugs will go completely through a car. A pump shotgun with a variety of different loads is the idea defense weapon. Drywall won't help the crook hide if you have your Mossberg, or my Mossberg, and some good ammo. That, plus the shotgun is still looked upon as a: "gentleman's gun" as in bird hunting.....whereas a Blackhawk in .44 MAg is viewed as, well,....a "gun nut's" weapon, bought just to kill people. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

Dave, That is a Super BlackHawk!!!! Not just a lowly Blackhawk (.357 mag vs .44 mag.) Sloppy thinking if the single action cowboy style pistol that has to be manually cocked to fire is thought of as designed for killing people. Not that it won't but a double action or semi-auto is more of a WMD.

I thought short 12 ga pumps (a riot gun) had a knarly rep too.

When I carried the Mossberg for protection while fishing Alaska I loaded "00", "000", and saboted slug at the same time on the theory that if I had to fire on a griz it would be in a situation where the range was diminishing rapidly and the seriousness of the threat would be escalating so I loaded in the order mentioned to escolate lethality. Boy am I glad I only saw Mr. Bear from a distance, a safe distance. A co-worker lost all his back packing food to a griz and has to walk out of the back country for three days on a couple granola bars. He had "saved" the inconvenience of a $25 returnable deposit on a bear proof food container.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] When I hear the name: "Blackhawk" it always reminds me of that incident in....ALaska......maybe it was someone you knew?......where the guy is up there on vacation and is swinging up into a helicopter and his "hawk" slides out of his Wyatt Earp holster and drops onto the concrete, hits on the hammer, and the sheer weight of that loaded hand cannon shears off the half-cock notch and it fires. The bullet went upward and under his leg, decorating the interior of the bird with little pieces of his patella. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] That precipitated a recall to modify the Hawks with some kind of a bar system. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

I know this will be hard to believe"but". The first boy that came "visiting" my daughter was a real loser. Isn't that the way it always will be with daddy's baby girl? Anyway his father was a farmer and had beef cows. He heard something in the barn so he went to check it out. He took his old single barreled 12 ga. with him and his fiest dog. He had problems getting around because he lost a leg to cancer. He didn't find anything wrong so he went back in. He was taking his boots off and the little fiest knocked the shotgun over, he had stood it up beside the counter and as it fell it went off and shot him, guess where. Yep, In the good leg. True story, but no body will believe it, Later, Nat

Dave, My Super Blackhawk is one of the earlier ones without the locking bar. It has four hammer positons: 1. rests the firing pin on the primer if cylinder is loaded, 2. brings the hammer up just a tad 3. half cock (AKA the white zone, for loading and unloading only), and 4. full cock (to be performed when ready to shoot.)

I have only had mine "in the dirt" twice. Once getting into a mil jeep with the hammer strap not snapped and once when a jug headed horse that I was mounting stepped back tightening a rope around its nect tied to a tree. When it felt the rope tighten it tried to back away from the tree and pulled the rope tighter and panicked. My buddy whose sheath knife I had carefully sharpened for him the previous night, cut the 3/4 inch rope in one slice. the horse fell backwards and to the left. The horse ended up down on its left side with me still in the saddle. I had to dismount to let the horse get up off my downside leg. Sometime in all this the gun unholstered and went in the dirt.

It would have been poetic justice if it had shot the horse. It broke the left stirrup which I jury rigged with some of the cut rope and took the horse out and gave it a very vigorous workout. My wife and budy were surprised that none of me was busted.

Funny thing about this pistol...it came in a box marked 7 1/2 inches but doesn't measure 7 1/2 inches anywhere. I called Ruger and they admitted to having made a few .44 mags from .41 mag barrel blanks and offered to rebarrel the pistol for me free of charge. I don't mind it being a bit shorter and will probably never take them up on their offer.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, did you carry that Superb Blackhawk with one empty chamber under the hammer like the cowboys of the Old West? Have you drilled on the: "I've just got one round left; when I snap the cylinder back in, which side of the frame does the round go on?" You should be doing that drill every morning, Pat...... no sliding by on weekends. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]