Simer water pressure booster pump

Anyone here have experience with or knowlege of a Simer brand water pressure booster pump? I haven't found enough info to be sure how it regulates pressure or how well it regulates pressure. Is there any reason why I shouldn't install a Simer water pressure booster? What about an air backed neoprene bladder tank along with the Simer to help stabilize the system and reduce starts and stop (short run) problems?

Although I have well water plumbed into the house (for just in case) I ordinarily have the house connected to the rural water system which often has lousy (low) pressure that fluctuates considerably. I seldom adjust the shower head and note the current water pressure by where on the far wall the stream hits or how far short it falls. I also have a couple pressure gages that don't agree with each other but suggest that pressure sometimes drops below 20 PSI (static). I want something like about 45 psi +/- 5 psi or so (I think.)

I'm not stuck on Simer but can get one for $269 which seems pretty good. I am open for suggestions regarding using the Simer or alternatives to it. Most of the alternative pumps I have seen are $600 and up. I could be persuaded that a $800 pump is a better bargain than a Simer at $269 but would need to hear the reasons. Here is the model in question:

http://www.simerpumps.com/pdf/pg_18_2004.pdf

The chart they show depicts a straight 40 psi added to your pressure from 10-40 psi becoming 50-80 psi but they say there is an adjustment dial BUT leave the details more than a bit sketchy.

I want less variation in my pressure than say 40-80 lbs. It seems somehow wrong to have to put in another regulator to drop the pressure back down after paying to pump it up. If that is what it takes, then "ALRIGHTY THEN" I can do it but I am outside my comfort zone of familiarity of standard practices as applied here and need some help.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The Simer Pump used to be a Red Jacket with a different name. Kind of like the Water Ace which is Myers name used for the sales in HD and Lowes.

The Simer Pump in your link is a European pump, all metric, tefc motor that won't last long and a unit I tried out years back that didn't work worth a darn. It was supposed to do away with tanks. YEAH RITE.

What they never tell you is; if there is no more water to be had, there is no more pressure to be had. The booster pump must be able to draw more water than is already available in the water line to increase the flow which in turn would increase pressure. At low demands, the booster pump would work. While using all you have from your water provider the booster won't help.

To answer your question about quality, the $600.00 may or not be better. I have seen some pretty expensive pieces of junk out there.

For my money, a little 1/2hp shallow well jet pump would work great, either with a flow switch or a tank, switch and Cycle Stop Valve. A good pump with no metric screws and bolts.

bob...

Speedbump, Thanks for the heads up. I don't struggle with the hydrodynamics or other theory involved, that is the easy part for me, but I don't have much breadth of actual experience with the equipment. I sure don't want to buy something that doesn't last. I tend to feel one good unit that lasts is often better than having to replace a bad one several times even if the price of the short life unit is very attractive.

I gave up on lifetime guaranteed rebuilt alternators and master cylinders bcause it was massively inconvenient to have to keep suffering problems (and associated risks) and my labor to R&R the crap.

Would you mind elaborating a bit on the cycle stop arrangement? The majority of my actual hands on experience is with a submerged pump supplying water under pressure to a bladder tank with the only control being a 20-50 psi (or whatever) pressure switch. I had actually briefly thought of a cheap shallow well pump and with pressure switch and bladder tank and now rethinking it I am attracted to the idea again. Nothing like a little confidence boost from an expert.

Unless your elaboration on the cycle stop arrangement blows my skirt up I will probably go with a bladder tank and pressure switch with the shallow well pump. I don't know if a check valve is commonly included integral to the pump but I think I would want to have a check valve on the output of the pump unless you convince me otherwise. This house is all new piping so few restrictions which makes me think a pressure switch with limits set to 35-40psi for low and 50-55psi for high would be good. Does that sound OK to you? Any guesses as to the minimum size bladder tank? I intend to get a tank larger than whatever we think a minimum is.

Thanks for your advise and preventing me from wasting $ on Simer (Italian) pump.



[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I'm probably going to get a lot of flak for this, but let me state that in my opinion there is no substitute for hydro-pneumatic storage. Whether it is the source pump, or a booster, the advantages are many, and the only real disadvantages are cost and space.......er....the cubic feet kind of space, not outer space. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] With pressurized storage in the system, instantaneous demand is more evenly met because some of the required flow comes out of the bladder tank, even while the long (hydraulic) supply line is still coming up to speed. The tendency for the pump to cavitate while the supply line is accelerating is thereby reduced. Obviously, the bigger the storage, the better the system works. You need to think of a long supply line as a train standing still; it takes a while to get up to speed and once that happens, the static head gives way to the net head: (static head minus the friction losses). No "super valve" ever made can compensate for and offset the inertia that is in a pipeline of water at zero flow when that water tap in the bathroom is swung wide open. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
No "super valve" ever made can compensate for and offset the inertia that is in a pipeline of water at zero flow when that water tap in the bathroom is swung wide open.

[/ QUOTE ]

But a CSV has a pressure tank to accomplish a solution to your concern, and provides constant pressure by allowing the pump to continue to run until the water usage stops which substantially reduces pump starts, which substantially reduces wear on the pump extending its life which reduces cost. All while a CSV usually costs WAY less than the smallest captive air pressure tank.
www.cyclestopvalves.com

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Dave, No complaints here! I am a believer in pressure tanks to level out pressure demands. They aren't that expensive and in a protected location should last a long time. As far as space considerations go, I can build a stout shelf if I want and get it up out of the way but don't think it is a sure thing that the effort will be required.

As my first training was electronics (even ahead of physics) I tend to think of a bladder tank as a capacitor and flow resistance like electrical resistance and it is all pretty simple. Pumps are just current and voltage sources with certain transter characteristics. Even water hammer "computes" but is perhaps a tad convoluted in an eletrical analogy.

I do like the suggestion to use a shallow well pump but the other stuff is outside of my experience. I don't know what its innards would look like and it would take some convincing (that hasn't been forthcoming) before I would adopt any valve to replace a bladder tank.

I put small pressure tanks in my RV's to reduce short cycling of the 12VDC pressure pump. Make an amazing improvement to run times as sell as reducing the variabillity in pressure when the pump is running.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] We used to call those "Pump Start and Pressure-Controlling Valves" when we installed the 6", 8", 10" and 12" sizes made by Clayton. They basically eased the starting flow into the system, regulated pressure, and slowly closed off when the demand had been met. They were eventually made obsolete by variable speed pump drives. Wether you decide to buy a "smart valve" or not, Pat, you still need a captive-air tank. The applications shown on the posted CSV web site are not exactly what you are working with in your situation, Pat since the biggest problem that you have is on the SUPPLY SIDE. it would probably make a heck of a lot of difference if all you did was plumb a good-sized captive air tank into the system close to the point of use. That would help offset the inertia problem with the supply line. Buy a nice tank and just connect it to a handy faucet as a way of checking the theory. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Dave, Until or unless someone gives me a convincing argument regarding any system other than with a bladder tank, the proposed system mod will have one.

If inertia were my problem, flow would increase shortly after opening a valve wide. Not the case. I have variable water pressure as evidenced by the shower head's trajectory. Sometimes it is pretty acceptable and other times it is marginal.

Adding a pressure tank without a booster pump would improve initial flow when a valve is opened, especially if a lag induced by inertia (analgous to inductive reactance) were a problem. I don't have a noticible lag. The flow doesn't visibly "ramp up" after a valve is opened.

If a check valve were introduced between the source and the tank then under a no consumption condition AND varying supply pressures, the tank pressure, over time, would tend to approach the peak supply pressure experienced (like a capacitor charging through a resistor eventually charges up to the peak voltage of the charging waveform.) This would briefly give you a higher pressure and flow when a point of consumption valve were first opened but would taper off to no higher than the then extant ambient supply line pressure. The larger the tank then the longer it would take for pressure to taper off to the current supply pressure. It would take an enourmous tank to hold a higher pressure long enough for a shower, much less two consecutive ones (we don't always shower together.)

I need something like my own a 100 ft water tower filled by a pump OR I need a booster pump, check valve, and bladder tank (you can substitute a bladder tank for a water tower.

Alternatively, I can just mumble under my breath when the rural water system pressure is on the low side and complain every so often.

I would be open to hear any recommendations regarding booster pumps. I got one recommendation, buy a shallow well pump but even there I would favor a more specific recommendation RE brand, type, HP, or whatever. Booster systems are pretty expensive so I would lkke to get it right the first time.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Just time your showers to off peak usage ehh. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Pat,

The booster systems you see on the internet are nothing more than a CSV, pressure tank and a jet pump anyway. They just charge more to put them together for you in a cute little package. And they add that high quality European pump.

bob...

Egon, Easier said than done. There may be a periodicity or repeatable sequence but I haven't figured it out yet if it exists. It isn't like in large cities where the water pressure fluctuates in time with TV commercials from all the folks waiting till commercial to go to the bathroom.

It may be something like a random sequence where when the cylindrical water storage tank/tower gets to its lower set point and a pump fills it to the top set point. This would give varying pressure due to the head but not related to consumption in a simple manner. The highest and lowest pressures would not follow a schedule. How often the fluctuations occured would be a function of average usage but peak usage might happen at peak pressure.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Pat, the pressure is the pressure and there are only two of them; static and dynamic - standing still and moving. No matter the volume of the tank, pressure is pressure and it won't increase because of a larger tank being installed. Plus, your problem is lack of pressure and flow. So putting a big bulge (a tank) in the plumbing ins't going to get more pressure or flow; just a larger volume of low pressure slow/low flow water. The capative air precharge pressure isn't going to increase pressure, it equalizes to your main line water pressure when you shut off the shower.

Your pressure (to the tank) is controlled by the pressure switch settings you have the well pump pressure switch set for, or whatever the city pressure is at your house. Since you want to boost pressure, IIRC, you have city water, a pressure tank is not going to increase your pressure (even if you had a well); or prevent pressure fluctuation.

You need a booster pump but, if the pump wants more water than the city supplies, you must go with an atmospheric storage tank to provide flooded suction (more volume) to the pump or it won't solve your problem while it causes another problem; cavitation damage of the pump, along with less money in your wallet.

The best choice for a pump is a correctly sized for your house shallow well single line/jet pump. They require a pressure tank. That setup, either a pressure tank or atmospheric tank and pump, will come with a corresponding pressure fluctuation. The only solution is a variable speed pump or CSV or Smart Tee (uses a type of CSV not as good as a CSV).

A CSV will prevent the pressure fluctuation in your house. Although I have them available to me, I do not sell them but Bob does. I turned him on to them... I know Bob, and he may, if you talk nice to him, guarantee no noticeable fluctuation in water pressure past the CSV. I could sell you one with that guarantee... but I prefer not to sell pumps, tanks etc. and concentrate solely on water treatment; which usually has me overworked without taking on more.

CSVs cost way less than variable speed pumps and their controllers and don't require anything other than simple plumbing to install one in your plumbing. And to go variable speed, you then must use an atmospheric type tank which opens the door to water quality issues and increased maintenance to deal with them and equipment in some cases. Which all equates to more money to simply be able to power wash yer butt in the shower.... [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Gary, Thanks for the very informative post. I understand everything you said, in detail, except the fine nuances relating to CSV smart T stuff. I can research that.

It isn't that I don't understand the way air backed tanks work that caused me to say what you didn't agree with. I gave a very narrowly defined example that youi may claim is not often encountered. I stick by my earlier comments.

If there is a time varying pressure applied to a bladder tank through a check valve the tank will tend to pressure up to the highest pressure in the varying pressure profile, NOT the average or any other pressure but the peak which might be significantly higher than the typical pressure. This is the part yoiu disagreed with but it is sound science. Perhaps it has little or no practical application but is true.

I do thank you for your post, I will look into thte parts with abbreviatioins that I don't understand.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, you are actually considering a very small increase in pressure here. The difference between the shower stream hitting the twelfth tile and the eighth tile on the wall is only about ten pounds of pressure. Most hydro-boost setups are made to add a lot more than just ten PSI, so a packaged unit might actually be a waste of money compared to a tank, a check valve, and a switch. Whether you buy a "smart valve" or not, the storage is the key. It'll help with the inertia thing and reduce cycling. A single-stage, end suction centrifugal would be a good choice. They also make some nice stand up units with straight-line piping Check Sta-Rite, PACO, and Goulds. It would be nice to go 1750 RPM for longivity, but at the low flow it may be difficult to find one. 1750 RPM would have a way better chance to overcome the low NPSH on the intake side and would have a reduced tendency to cavitate on startup. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

The control on the Simer booster pump you are looking at works by starting the pump at a low pressure and stopping the pump a few seconds after the flow has stopped or almost stopped. Some of these devices have a small bladder to store only a spoon full of water. Unlike electricity it takes a second to get the water moving in the pipe. Open a tap, low pressure starts the pump. A second later the pump surges water to the open tap then pressure increases. The biggest problem with these type controls is a leak in the system. The flow switch in these controls usually shuts the pump off if less than 1/5 of a GPM is being used. Then because there is no bladder storage tank, the pressure quickly drops and the pump restarts. A dripping faucet or running toilet can cause the pump to cycle about every eight seconds until something burns up. A Cycle Stop Valve works with a bladder tank. It allows the stored water from any size tank to be used for instantaneous demands without any surging. It allows a dripping faucet to draw from the tank for hours, depending on the tank size. Then the CSV keeps the pump from cycling while using small demands like a single shower or single hose.

Another problem you may have is with the water supply. If the pressure is already as low as 20 PSI sometimes, it stands to reason that it will be even lower when your pump starts sucking on the city supply. As long as your pump is large enough to boost from 0 PSI to the pressure you require, no problem. If the pump sucks the city pressure below 0 PSI you could cause lines on the suction to collapse. Then it would be better to let the city fill a storage tank and have the pump draw from the storage instead of the city line.

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] How about doing a flow test, Pat, and just see what kind of maximum delivery the supply line is capable of. By doing that, you could assure yourself that you aren't battling a flattened pipeline, or a partially closed valve. By ascertaining the flow available, even at near zero head, you can make a more intelligent guess as to the correct size of the booster system. You can try the test at various times during the 24-hr cycle and thereby find the worst case scenario that can then be used as the pumping plant design criteria. I'm looking across the room at an enlarged photo of a line booster station that I built a few years ago and which might be just what you need. The photo shows three, 75 HP split-case double-suction Peerless centrifugals pumping in parallel.....oops....that may be a bit oversized for your deal.....but it does make a nice picture. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Dave, I have measured my pressure under 20psi at times and would like at least 40 and 45-50-55 somewhere in there would be great unless someone explains why that would be bad.

The increased pressure in a storage tank (pretty much the peak pressure experienced over the time window in question) with a check valve on the input under a varying supply pressure is NOT a practical means of boosting pressure unless yoiu had an enourmous bladder tank like the size of the house or only needed a few pints of water. I was just waxing theoretical. Sorry, my feet are approaching terra firma even as I write this.

I realize shower trajectory geometry is not a very well calibrated pressure measurement when it comes to communicating. Lets just say it goes under 20 psi and up to about 30-40 and I would like 40-50. This means with a shallow well pump it wouldn't have to pump a lot every time I drew water, mostly when pressure dipped.

I'll rely on you professionals to steer me regarding cavitation and other fine points of system design where I have little to no experience. I do know cavitatioin is a BAD thing and erodes metal parts and makes a lot of noise. I actually had to study cavitation a few times. Once at the Anti-Submarine Warfare School in San Diego.

Comment en passant cavitation: When you pop your knuckles you are forming cavitation bubbles and the snaping sound is the bubbles collapsing in on them selves as pressures are equalized.

I'll check out your recommendations re brands and RPM etc. It isn't like this is a crisis, we are doing OK in all aspects of water delivery except outdoor watering where watering times are highly variable and my automatic system runs on time not volume. ...A N D shower pressure varies buy a factor of two or more. Other things are level controlled: dishwasher, clothes washer... so pressure isn't a big deal.

My reaction may be slightly out of proportion but pressure under 20 psi bugs me.

1994, Thanks for chiming in.

...and Dave, you are absolutely right about my needing to do some flow rate experiments. Pressure measurements before and after timed filling of a 6 gal bucket repeated whenever the static pressure is at a value of interest that hasn't been done yet will give some design data.

I am fairly confident but not entirely sure that I don't have untoward flow restriction losses in the house plumbing but will do the timed flow thingy from both ends of the house, both close to and away from the supply entry point. Probably do a particular outside frost free hydrant too as it gets water in parallel to but not through the house.

I have over a 1/4 mile run of 2 inch slip together (not glued) PVC pipe coming from a 6 inch line running from the treatment plant to the nearest town (couple miles past me.) The 6 inch run before it gets to the 2 inch connection is about 6 miles. The meter is about 600 ft or so before the 2 inch terminates at the house and becomes 3/4 inch. The meter is 3/4 inch in and out so it is a restrictive orifice. It is downhill to me from the 6 inch. A head of about 20-30 feet.There is just one elbow in the run and that is just prior to the meter. IT is on the rural water district's side of the meter, out of my sphere of influence.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Now I'm really getting confused. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

If the supply is lacking in volume the outdoor sprinker system isn't gonna work no matter what you do unless there is a very large storage tank.

Surely the shower unit will not require enough water to deplete the public water main?

Why not just install a small manually switched inline pump downstream of comingled hot/cold water for the shower head?

Or use a bathtub?

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I don't believe that this application calls for a shallow well jet pump. A single-stage centrifugal will work just fine and will give you the boost that you need; there doesn't seem to be any justification for adding a jet. The supply line SEEMS like it is big enough, especially if you gain some static head from the water main to your point of use. That 3/4" meter should not be a problem or a significant restriction for normal domestic water system flows. Water supply agencies often frown [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] on customer installed booster systems, but the reality is that many areas served by "rural water" are horribly low on pressure. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] You could also try crabbing about your feeble pressure to the guys at the water works. If you do mention it, however, don't say the word: "booster". just act resigned when they tell you that: "You have a froobled framis out there and it's a special case, and nothing can be done". [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

I'm for the flow test CJDave mentioned.

I'm not for the centrifugal over the jet though. The jet will pull plenty of water for his needs in the shower and do a great job of boosting if more water is available, which I agree should be. But I think a centrifugal would try to draw too much water which would make any possible cavitation worse than would the jet pump.

I didn't know Pat had a sprinkler system. If so, how good does it work and what flow does it require. That would answer a big question.

bob...

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Good hydraulic system design usually dictates that in-line booster pumps be single (or even two-stage) centrifugals, not jet pumps. It just isn't the right application for a jet. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

Dave, I think they have one part time guy who was sent to some courses after he screwed up and the quality of the water got them busted by an oversight agency that had them send out notices about the the gastric distress and its symptoms that we might have experienced. This has happened at least twice in 4 years.

This is the group of self styled geniuses that let a contract without proper clauses to get warranty work. There were massive leaks that went undetected due to IGNORANCE and HUGE water bills were/are owed by the rural water district to the water supplier. By any reasonable accounting method they are bankrupt.

A local Indian tribe, the Citizen Pottawatomie, who participated in the financing (and had their chairman there to give a traditional blessing at the celebration of the groundbreaking) were rumored to be taking over the rural water district operations which would be good news as we could get improved management. Unfortunatley many months have passed and it has not happened. (They have an elected chairman not a hereditary chief.)

It is true that it is often easier to get forgiveness than it is to get permission so since there is absolutely nothing to be gained by telling the water district about a booster pump, I would never do that. Similarly, what they don't know about any booster pump won't hurt me. There is no prohibition against them, the "CONTRACT" is silent on the issue of booster pumps.

If I were willilng to settle for 30 psi (not real attractive) the booster wouldn't have to run very much or very often. I wish I had a pressure transducer in the 10-50 psi range, I could womp up some signal conditioning and graph the pressure variations with time with an old Rustrak chart recorder I have. It takes a data point once a minute. That would be instructive.



[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Pat:

Charting pressure would verify what you already know and basically be a waste of time. But if you do it hook up into your computer and make an interesting project of it by adding household flow rates.

Question: After your coments on the water supply management how is the water quality tested and controlled. This may be a bigger issue than the pressure. [ Look up Walkertown, ontario ] on google for reasurance.

Now for the low pressure:
Install a small jet pump with the jet removed [check valve before pump] as the suction is flooded and pipe it to a pressure tank of 80 or so gallons. Set the pressure switch to your liking and go shower. The pumps are inexpensive and easily obtainable. If failure occurs a bypass will keep you in water till a replacement is found. Also add a flow indicator shutdown to the pump in case your pumping capacity exceeds the supply rate.

Or you could really complicate things! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Centrifugals work good for large water flows, but the jet is better suited for Pat's needs.

Removing the jet from a then centrifugal pump can overload the motor if too much water is pumped. The jet prevents this condition and adds to the pressure capability of the pump.

bob...

Egon, I know that my pressure varies but I don't have a clue as to how much time it is low compared to medium or high or when it is low (if I am not in the shower) as the appliances don't complain. Maybe I am gearing up to fix something because I am aware it isn't perfect when it isn't substandard enough of the time or severe enough to be a realistic concern.

We have been long time users of RO filtration, since it was first widely available for under counter installation. Still, we remain concerned with the quality of our rural water. We may need to consider alternative or supplemental treatment to have confidence in our water.

Water is taken for granted in so much of the US that folks are in for a rude surprise fairly soon when there just isn't enough to go around. In San Diego, water users were encouraged to save, save, save water and it worked, developers were able to show that there was adequate water to supply thousands of more homes. The reward for water conservation was many thousands of more water consumers raising thousands of more water consumers.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Pat, how large a tank (drawdown gallon wise) are you planning?

What psi will you set the captive air pressure to?

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

Gary, I had not decided for sure yet and am open to suggestions regarding tank size and pressure. I had been thinking that I would get somewhere in the range of 30 gal or so and follow the included instructions regarding the air pressure which if memory serves is 2-3 psi below the pressure switch setting with no water pressure (pump off and system bled.

For whatever reason I am not noticing as many low pressure episodes as I had previously, none recently. I'll check with the rural water district and see if they have made any changes or if they have an explanation. If they "fixed" the problem then I can skip the upgrade. If not then I lean toward the tank and booster pump.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

One other thing about not using a centrifugal, they are not used (not supposed to be used) with a pressure switch like a jet pump is, so if your going with the tank, that is one more reason to stay with the jet.

bob...

Speed, The finer points, such as centrifugal vs jet, are outside of my experience.

Maybe I am oversimplifying but a shallow well pump (not submerged type) seems to be a good solution with a tank and pressure switch. In normal use the well pump has to work against a negative pressure on the suction side and pressurize the tank to say 50 psi. So even if while running the pump the supply line pressure drops to near zero (and I don't think it will) that shouldn't be a problem for the pump.

Funny thing but now that I have asked for and received considerable help and opinion on my pressure problem which has been in existance from day one...it seems to have basically gone away. I still need to check with the "water works" to see if they made some change which would account for the better pressures. If so, then I learned a little but don't need to apply it (this time.)

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Dagnabbed Pat! [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Here we's was just about to come up with the perfect design to maintain constant water pressure and the problems dissapear. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

Now what was really indicated was a pressure tank of at least 80/100 gallons with constant pressure maintained by air. A level controlled pump with full opening bypass and a floor pressure sensor in the shower. Also a flowmeter on the pressure tank outlet and another at the municipal header.

The floor sensor would start the pump on full bypass to eliminate water hammer, the bypass would regulate the water level by level switch and usage of a program that would make use of outlet flow and the inlet flow for lag/lead times to minimize level fluctuations. The air supply would keep the pressure at a constant level. It would also make use of the outlet flow meter in its control system to make allowances and adjust for the water volume of the tank.

Hey, I even know of some fellows who could program it for you and have the water temp ready and controlled also.

It would make for a great project. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon

It would be a real trick to add a submersible to your system.

The jet pump is a centrifugal with the nozzle and venturi added. The jet adds pressure beyond the capability of the impeller.

I'm thinking maybe you scared your system by threatening to add a pump to it.

bob...

Egon, Put your whiz kids on retainer and have them stand by just in case the problem was only in temporary remission.

I would rather have IR motion detect for occupancy signal rather than floor sensors dure to two large corner seats cast in concrete and tiled over. They might not deflect sufficiently to give a detection should the occupant be seated.

Our well water is pretty hard but we never needed a hammer to manage it before! The Rural water is pretty soft and surely won't require a water hammer to be used (even an automated one with vairable impact force.)

Not to hurt anyone's feelings but I'd rather do any programing myself. Given the complexity of real-time concurrent process control and the fact that there is a human in jeopardy if there is a scalding hazard or such I think we need to choose a language with native support for concurency and exception handling so we can have a "Trusted System."

The DoD had a language specifically designed for this sort of project. It is Ada (not ADA, American Dental Association.) The language is Ada and the language manual is DoD Publication 1815 (revised to 1815 A or beyond) Quite a humanistic move on the part of the heartless drones of the Government considering that 1815 was selected as it was the year of birth of Ada, Countess of Lovelace, daughter of Lord Byron, and the worlds first computer programer who assisted Charles Babbage with his mechanical calculalting machine.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Bob, I think you may be on to something. Maybe I should talk about junk yards and such within range of my Dakota and see i=f it perks up.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

water pressure problem is really a bog problem .Total home water pressure booster pump is a solution for it. It will increase the pressure and give better results so you can enjoy better
shower ana big cleaning and many more.It consume less power. Its safe and easy to install and fully automatic that maximize and mainrain household water presure. Maximum pumping capacity to 26 GPM ,Maximum additional pressure 40 PSI