The outside units are nice.....no mess,no chance of catching your house on fire and you can put some big chunks of wood in it...A neighbor of one actually heats his swimming pool with his. If I was building another house I would really look hard at one.
<font color="blue">The other indecision is whether to get wood stove or fireplace, or both. </font color>
We went through the same process last year. Our furnace is propane forced air with AC. If we had not opted for the AC then we would have gone to some system using hot water.
Our home is 2300 SF on one level. We looked at all the fireplaces that are efficient and decided on the Kozy Heat. It is not the best unit around but for our application it was the best for us. It is located centrally and does heat the entire level. The temperature variation is about four degrees to the back bedroom. The unit allows a duct to added and I may do that in the future to balance the heat better.
We also installed a Quadrafire in the basement and it does the job. I will be studding out the walls and adding more insulation so that will help too. My office in the basement will have a propane vent less fireplace for additional heat. It is just too far from the the Quadrafire to be warmed sufficiently.
We fired up the fireplace the other day when the temperature over night dropped to 30 degrees. It brought the temperature to 80 degrees in about an hour. We had to let it go out. The outside temp got to fifty that day.
Just check and double check on the units. There are a lot of restrictions and venting requirements that most sales people do not know. I called the factory tech to verify the installation needs. The first unit I decided on could not be installed in the space allocated but fortunately that came to light in the conversation with the factory. Even the installation guide that is given to the installers does not have all the information. I had to replace the 4 inch air supply duct with a six inch to make the unit burn correctly. Now it works fine.
We moved into the house I built, or rather am building, a year ago. I designed for hydronic heating and this its the best. Even heat, quiet (like electrical), no dust, no dry air, etc., etc.. Plus, you can do it all yourself -- I did, never having done any HVAC at all, and it works fine. I saved a bundle, and could have saved more if I would have known then what I know now.
I agree with Argee. I was really amazed when we moved into our house 10 years ago at how even the heat is. On the flip side, my mom lived with us one winter and didn't like it just because there wasn't a heater to stand in front of.
On the subject of leaks and repairs - ours is installed with spare loops in each floor, ball valves on each loop. There are no splices in the floors. Our house is about 50% slate floors and 50% wood floors. I'm sitting here with bare feet on the slate floor.
Why are you going propane? I just converted from propane to oil last year and I think I'm saving a lot. Don't just compare the price per gallon - propane has a lot lower heating value than oil (70% IIRC). I'm still using propane for cooking and drying clothes.
BTW - my builder used a very simple, inexpensive system for the loops in the wood floors. I think it is slicker than the little metal wing thingies. They just laid 2x3's on the flat ever couple of feet and laid the ridgid foam insulation with the foil side up between then. The loops went on top of the insulation, in a serpentine pattern. The hardwood flooring is fastened to the furring strips.
BrianP, how hard was it to do your own hydronic system, and what type of system did you do? I have most commonly seen the use of plastic (pex) tubing, with a thin concrete or mortor base (assuming over a joist floor system, as opposed to concrete slab). I have also seen the tubing installed on the underside of the sub-floor, with sheet metal heat spreaders. Any thoughts, advice or sources of info and materials is much appreciated.
My hydronic system uses PEX tubing embedded in lightweight concrete. The concrete forms a good sized thermal mass, which if you are doing a new installation, is 100% the way to do it. You have to plan ahead, and use double bottom plates. The concrete is 1 1/2" thick. There are two ways to pour the thermal mass. Concrete or Gypcrete (which is gypsum).
If I did it again, I think I would choose gypcrete. It is poured into the floor and is rather thin and soupy. It is self leveling. My concrete floor has more thermal mass, but there are a few places where the floor isn't as even as it could be.
Mounting on the underside of the floor is usually how they install this system as a retrofit or remodel. It works OK, but lacks the thermal mass. Its that big thermal mass that really makes the house comfortable.
Brian
There is a long answer, with lots of detail, and a short answer. I'll try the short answer.
My system is PEX with an oxygen barrier. This type of PEX cost more (2 to 3x) than regular plumbing PEX, because its supposed to save the boiler from rusting. Since the boiler doesn't have infitinite life, I am not 100% sure the oxygen barrier nets out to being worth it. The PEX is the most expensive part of the system - I paid C$1/linear foot, which adds up because you need roughly 1 linear foot/square foot. I am told rubber is better than PEX but $$$$. Copper, etc., are a no no.
My basement and main floor are 4" slab. In fact most of my house is concrete - the walls are Insulated Concrete Forms, but thats another thread. The house is pretty much fireproof.
The basement slab is on top of 2" of styrofoam + 6 mill plastic (you need the plastic on top of the styrofoam, otherwise the concrete will crack a lot). The insulation is a good idea anyway because my basement is as warm and dry as any main floor. My concrete main floor is supported by Open Web Steel Joists - expensive but I have pretty much a clear span over 35'. In both slabs the PEX loops (250' each) are fastened to the reinforcing mesh with tie wraps.
As I understand it, radiant works best if you have a thermal mass, but you don't need 4" of concrete - an inch will do, but your floor has to be able to support the load. I looked into gypcrete, and while it is true that it flows well, I was told it is water solulable after drying, which means a plumbing problem can make a big big disaster. I'd go with lightweight concrete and use a leveler if need be if I didn't have a 4" slab. Before the concrete is poured take a zillion pictures of your pipes. You'd be surprised how important knowing where your pipes are can be.
Most of the stuff in my system is Burnham (boiler, manifolds, etc..) while the rest is Taco. I called a local supplier who gave me a 'package deal'.
Unfortunately, I probably overpaid (not his fault, he's a vendor, not a designer). So I paid for 20 or so theremostats I'll never use, C$250 + mainfolds I could have build from scratch for $25, etc., etc.. Nonethless, I saved about 50% over the lowest quote I got (it worked out to C$4/sq foot of heated space).
There is a mail order / web place in Vermont. They are very helpful, but the cost would have been way too high because of the exchange rate, customs, etc., etc..
There is a book by Dan Holohan called Hydronic Radiant Heating: A Practical Guide for the Nonengineer Installer, which I found very useful, although unfortunately I only bought it after I had most of the system in place.
I would advise people to use as much copper piping for main loops and so on (NOT in the slab). I paid a pipe fitter to set mine up and we never could stop the leaks. I redid the hole thing in copper by myself and it never leaked. Also, plan on using mixer valves with extra ciculators. Costs a bit more, but works better than other control systems.
Also, the controls I bought (including the 'special' thermostats) are pretty much useless (but $$$$). I will design an improved control system with zoning, etc., once I finish the house. (I used to design computers for a living).
Also, be warned that floor coverings affect the layout of the PEX because of different insulation values for them. Also, wood flooring gets tricky because you can't nail it down usually because you might pierce a pipe (which is very exciting), and because of the expansion and contraction effect of the heat. Engineered flooring or special stuff like quarter sawn oak are called for. You should thing of these things before you start.
If you want further info, let me know. I can walk anybody through the process by now.
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There is a mail order / web place in Vermont. They are very helpful, but the cost would have been way too high because of the exchange rate, customs, etc., etc..
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BrianP,
Were you referring to HouseNeeds ? I notice they sell a lot of items direct, like hydronic heating and tankless water heaters, and seem to have good prices and shipping charges. It looks like their PEX O2 barrier tubing runs about $0.30-$0.40 (US) per foot.
Ooops. Two appologies. First I was too lazy to look up http://www.radiant-tech.com/heat/Welcome.html
when I made the post. I think this is them.
Second, they are in New York so I appologize to all the Vermonters and New Yorkers out there, but its probably upstate New York, which is pretty much the same, right?
Anyhow, they are very helpful, if I recal. Even their website is useful.
Eagle Ridge
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