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[Handyman]

I want to introduce myself here and inform you the public that even though I don't know it all (every township has its own laws concerning building codes) I do have 20 yrs experience in just about all facets of building and repairs.

I am currently in the final 2 weeks of completion of the building of my own home (1st one) that I personally designed 2 yrs ago. I began construction 15 mos ago of a 3 bdrm/2 bth on 5 acres in the country. The home was under the TVA Energy Right Program in which I rated a 86.1 (83 was all that was needed ). The house qualified as a Energy Right Gold home. It is heated and cooled with a 12seer 3 ton Gibson heat pump and is insulated like a Igloo cooler. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

It is a 1632 sq ft living area home with a 2 car garage (24x24), 8x20 front porch & 10x30 back porch both under roof. Thats 2210 with garage and almost 3800 sq ft under roof (which by the way I roof myself after firing the roofers).
I want to emphisize that I have done 80% of the work by myself in these 15 mos so I have a lot of hands on practical experience as well as operate a self own business. Can you say 7 days a week for 15 mos ? [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

I'm not going to bore you with specific details on the contruction of the house, but I have experience several issues during the contruction of the house that could have saved me a lot of money.

So anyhow there you have it... Now for your regular schedual programing [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Handyman, Good for you! So, what are the things that you would have done differently, why, and at what savings?

My current quest (and I am showing an unnatural lack of progress so far) is decent kitchen cabinets, stock built or assemble yourself type. I went to some retailers and spent hours helping their design wizards (Lowes, "Don't expect to much from me, I just been working here two weeks...) try to wrest a design out of their computer program. After getting a decent moderate middle of the road (actually 14 on a 19 point scale of price point) design the program costed it and it was nearly $15,000. Maybe I am out of touch with the marketplace but isn't that a bit much for a 12 1/2 by 13 1/2 foot "U" shaped kitchen + a 9 ft island with raised bar (No stools)? This did NOT include countertops, sink, any appliances, plumbing, or electrical. This was just base and wall cabinets of standard dimension (base cabs 36 in high , 24 inches deep, wall cabs 12in deep, 27 in high) no fancy upcharge finishes or exotic wood. Did NOT include instalation but did include shippiing (to the store). Pretty standard stuff. P U L E A S E someone tell me this isn't the BEST I can do.

Patrick

[ScottAR]

I'd say look around locally for cabinetmakers. I've never been impressed with "store bought" cabinets in either price or quality. Someone in your area could probably make a set for less $$. Perhaps I'm out of touch, as in my region, (AR) There are many people that build cabinets to order that are quite compeitive in price and much better quality.

[Handyman]

Hello Pat...

Lets address the cabinets first. I went with Kraftmaid cabinets. They have a life time warranty, they deliver to your door step and the cabinets I bought although I wasn't too awfully impressed with the sides (particle board) the face was red oak and the drawers were made of real wood and has dovetail contruction (very well made). The counter tops were locally made a Wineberry (burgandy) top with red oak faceing and red oak back splash [img]/forums/images/icons/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img] I must admit that in combination with recessed lighting just in front of the top cabinets makes for a very awsum looking kitchen.

Speaking of kitchens and cabinets, some of my 1st time mistakes [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
I didn't pay close attention to the dementions and the lady that helped me design the kitchen had made my long section 12'4" instead of 12' made for a challange for the local cabinet shop. Another thing was that in the other direction (my kitchen is "L" shape) there is 6' between the wall and the range. Formica come in 5' widths so there was more waste in building the counter tops.

Things I would change...

Well lets see, I would have stick framed my roof instead of buying prefab trusses at a tune of $4200.
I would have designed the house from the inside out instead of outside in. My major cost was in finishing the house, mainly the flooring. My kitchen/Dinning is 14' wide by 25.6' long. Nothing wrong with nice open spaces however my original plan was to use vinal for the flooring and since sheet vinal come in 12' widths that shot that idea out the window... [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] I was going to use Pergo or a simular faxcimily of it but it was going to be at a tune of close to $2000.00 for thise two areas and untility room and that was out of the question. I was dead set against ceramic tile but after a while of thinking about it... I change my mind as it appraises higher, easier to clean and along with some border trim in front of the cabinets... I made for a great looking floor and I found some real nice Italian tile that was just perfect and at a cost of 98 cents a foot.. with backer board,thinset,grout and tile and a 9'x9' piece of vinal for the utility room I was able to complete it all for just under $900.

I think I would have reduced the over all size of the house because this particular design would have allowed it and still produce ample room. I could have reduced the width of the house by 2 feet, maybe even 4 feet and the depth of the house by 2 feet and still have ample room in the living room and master bedroom.

What I have discovered was I took a demention of 34x48 and designed the rooms to fit in what I wanted. What has happened was odd sized rooms/areas. Not that it looks bad, quite the opposite, everything is very roomy and it will take yrs to find the right furiture and fill this house up, but I could have accomplished the same results with less cost.

Floor covering and your bathrooms will be the highest cost per foot in building a house. I have right at 92,500 in the total cost in the house (including construction loan payments, tools and paid myself about 3,000) I figure actual cost of the construction was closer to $83,500 for a total square footage including 460 sq ft of covered porches (2), a 2 car garage and 1632 living area... 2,668 sq ft. plus the cost of all the appliances including washer and dryer... That is aprox $31.30 a square foot [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

ScottAR, I know what you mean, I think. I've seen the COTS (Commercial of the Shelf) prefab particle board stuff. Not what I want in my new house (shop maybe). Kraft Maid, Schrock, and similar outfits build some really nice cabinets in their better lines. They will all sell you particle board or MDF if you want it, or are unwary and don't ask. I found a 9% extra charge for all plywood construction (over ply and particle) and another increase for drawers that open 100%. Big diference in stapled together MDF versus dovetailed solid woods.

I have seen some nice cabinets in the lines mentioned above. There are certain restrictions in sizes and accessories but I could easily meet or exceed my requirements from their standard modules. I just felt the price was too high. For example, a 7 ft by 3 1/2 ft island (36 in tall) with doors and drawers a plenty and several little spice drawers was $3500 PLUS whatever countertop you choose.

Countertop prices are another enigma. I don't want laminate (Formica or ...) nor tile and it's endearing grout. This leaves such tops as Corian and similar, real granite, crushed rock molded with resin, concrete, or... Corian and it's ilk are around 5x the price of Formica and more than real granite. Corian is seamless after installation but can be scratched, cut, or scorched. The less expensive crushed rock in resin is tougher, and more heat resistant and doesn't stain like some natural granite (which may require annual or semi-annual) sealing and is less expensive than the more easily damaged Corian.

While I am displayng my ignorance and suprise (sticker shock) on cabinets and counter tops, let me also mention my surprise when I found that good ceramic tile (not the most expensive but good, attractive, long wearing tile) is significantly less expensive, INSTALLED, than stamped or patterned concrete. I don't get it... You can hire a slab poured and finished then hire a tile layer to install good ceramic tile for significantly less that pouring a slab and having a stamping outfit spritz concrete coloring and tamp their molds on the surface to imitate tile, pavers, slate, or whatever. Why pay more to imitate tile than good tile costs? Why should concrete stamping be so expensive???

Anyway back to the original topic: We have a small town about 14 miles from here that has about 7 house factories. Although some of the builders will go to your site, most of them build "rollaways" to be trucked IN ONE PIECE to the homesite. Family friends of ours own and operate one of the the best (I think THE BEST) Cabinets are one of their difficulties as they sub the cabinets and one firm has a near monopoly at the price point required in this marketplace. They get good cabinets but most are NOT raised pannel doors and full extension drawers. The typical cabinet is veneer on MDF with the MDF showing in the bottom of the detailing on the doors. This level is typical of much of what I see coming out of other "custom shops" but is not what I want.

I will be following your advice to shop around the independent cabinet shops. If it doesn't significantly negatively impact my price and schedule, I would prefer to give the buisness to a owner operated small buisness. In most of my purchases I prefer to trade with ma and pa when it doesn't cost too much in time or $.

Pat

[egon]

Pat, remember when we were all young and cosmetics were so simple. Bricks, concrete blocks, some 2x10 and maybe an old door and two sawhorses and the kitchen was done. Even better if one could find some wooden boxes that would stack.

Egon

[Pat]

Handyman, Thanks for the reply. Your results sound great. Could you share a picture? I am sensitive to the sizing problems you mentioned. At one time I was pretty hard over toward ICF for the whole house and waste can be pretty expensive there. I was going to adjust the dinensions of the house in plan and elevation to accomodate a "best fit" to the particular ICF to be used. When I was even more ignorant regarding cabinets (hard to believe, but I was) I was thinking of adjusting the dimensions of the kitchen to fit standard cabinets and avoid lost space with fillers and dead areas in corners. Now of course, I know that cabinets come stock in many sizes and fit is not much of a problem.

I am planing something a bit different. I am going to space one wall of cabinets out from the wall by a foot. I will have spacers between the cabinets and the wall at the counter top height as well as the top and bottom of the wall cabinets which will be cantilivered out from the studs by a foot on spacers. The one foot "lost space" behind the base and wall cabinets will be accessed from the adjacent room. The side of the wall toward the kitchen will be sheathed with ply except above the wall cabinet which will be sheetrock over a framework extending out a foot from the studs. The other side of the wall is in the laundry/pantry and the studs will be left exposed. Built in shelves between the studs will extend the depth of the stud plus the foot of space, where available, into the kitchen. This will give me 17 1/2 inch shelf depth from the floor to 36 in and behind/above the wall cabinets. If I get good quality studs for that area, I can veneer them and they will look real good exposed. I have to check with the builder regarding stud spacing on this non-load bearing wall. I would like to go to 24 inch or wider centers even if I have to go to 2x6 or 2x8 studs to give wider shelve access.

I have not lost any space and in fact have gained the space between studs for storage but this is just a part of the reason for this gyration. If you followed along, you have noticed that the counter top is a foot deepeer than stock along this wall. The spacer will not be of the expensive counter top material and will serve as the floor for the extensive appliance garages that will be used in every available space along that wall. I may use the space behind the range for warming shelves on the "set in 1 ft" backsplash. Ace hardware sells tambour in up to 10 ft lengths and the corner guides to direct it when raising/lowering. This will make custom width appliance garages easy to make. Of course I will have electrical outlets in the garages. We use 2-3 waffle irons at a time with company, bread maker, mixer, toaster, etc. Being lazy, I'd rather just lift a door and use it or grag it out and use it rather than go to a cupboard and get it and bring it to the counter where there is an outlet.

I am considering doing this to the other side of the "U" shaped kitchen as well. It shares a wall with the foyer/entry hall and that would provide built in book case/display cases for a small changeable portion of my wifes extensive shell collection.

If I don't find a fairly local cabinet maker who can do what I want in quality/price, I will probably go with Kraft Maid or similar outfit also. There is another alternative that I am considering. I found a place that builds washable melamine (sp?) coated cabinets with adjustable shelves or whatever you want and ships them to you "knocked down" on pallets for local assy. Two assy methods: one like the prefab cheapies using special screws and the other requiring glue and clamps (my choice). You provide the face frame, hinges, any knobs/pulls/handles, and doors. I have dabbled in cabinet making and think I could make the face frame and doors. Another plus to this system is that I can choose my own wood and I have been looking rather favoraby at mesquite. Always had oak before but mesquite is BEAUTIFUL and you don't see it everywhere. Failing that, HICKORY with a medium light stain.

I'll post my current floor plan over by the house thread so you can get a chuckle when you see how little a jillion hours of computer time can produce. I think I am converging on a plan which is fortunate as I have only a few weeks till my builders availability window.

Pat

[Handyman]

Wow, sounds interesting least to say... LOL

I like the K.I.S.S method (Keep It Simple Stupid) I found this to actually be cost efective also.

I have some pictures but most of it is not digital and will require scanning. I can post what I have.

[Pat]

Egon, I recall lots of folks decorating the living room and bed rooms with concrete blocks and boards as shelves (especially to hold bookshelf speakers and a stereo)but not too much in the kitchen. I knew about but personally missed out on apple crates for cupboards in the kitchen. In the garage, you just nailed the crate to the wall and voila, a cabinet.

At one time I thought I would make cabinets to look like a set of apple crates,complete with the paper labels showing pix of produce but it didn't happen. Would probably be the "IN" thing now.

My parents grew up in meager surroundings and always tried to improve on their very humble beginings. I guess I am influenced by that striving. They both carefully avoided being pretentious or fancy so as not to seem like the "rich folks" of whom they were raised in comtempt. I think all of us whose parents were indelibly molded (scarred?) by the "Great Depression" and WW II show the effects and have a different mind set from the ME generation.

Now, Egon, this design idea isn't lavish, expensive, or particularly decorative (on the laundry side) just more efficient use of space at a minor expense. I'll probably build the spacers and work out the details so the impact to the framers will be minimal to non existant.

Patrick

[Pat]

Handyman, I too am a proponent of the KISS principle. One of my favorite Einstein quotes is "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." The detailsl of describing what I am going to do get complicated sounding but actually there isn't anything remotely challenging in doing it. There is a small engineering consideration for the cantilevered weight of the wall cabinets but 'taint no big thing.
I'll use simple picture frame doors with glass in them for the covered shelves in the hall on that side. Seems likek a lot of fuss but it isn't really. Otherwise, the appliance garages reduce your counter top width by about a foot leaving only about a foot which is way too narrow for my messy approach to kitchen duties.

Had I not sold my previous house when I did I was about to put a trash can under the counter with a chopping block lid over the hole in the counter top. The trash can would use under counter space in a corner that was hard to access anyway. The can would have been accessed from outside and the space would have been sealed air tight fron the kitchen side. No odor in the kitchen with the lid on the hole and you don't drag the trash can through the house to take it outside. The lid doesn't hinge it lifts off and sets on the counter top as it is a cutting board. Trimmings are just brushed off into the holel in the counter top.

If you want to think of complication, this is for you: Curently we use a stainless steel trash can with a lid lifted by foot pedal. It has a plastic bucket with bail inside which we line with a trash bag. It seals pretty good when closed (good odor control) and I thought I could make a remote pedal to operate the pedal on the trash can so I could use this good sealilng can under the hole in the counter and get good odor control without resorting to accessing the can from outside the house. This can is only used for compostable stuff like veggie and meat trimmings and scraps. Recycle and burnable stuff will have 4 undercounter slide out trash cans in pairs (see the Kraft Maid catalog) as I am tired of having trash cans underfoot. They have a three can lazy susan but I think it would be a bother to stand there with a hand full of something and have to rotate it to the right container.

Patrick