How to save money when building a new home

[Pat]

Gary, This stuff isn't black and white but shades of grey. the specificity required to unambiguously communicate even moderate complexities sometimes exceeds the interest of the reader and the ability of the author. But let me make a feeble attempt to give reason to believe that what I claimed can, in fact, be so in some cases.

Take as an example brick veneer with conventional stick construction: Around here the cost of brick goes up quite rapidly with height above grade (stone, even more so), especially above 8 ft or so. There are other cost drivers that do this as well. Roofing costs more with height as well as increased pitch. A two story house isn't two one story houses stacked one atop the other but with only one roof. There should be more foundation and greater structural scantlings for the load bearing walls. Bracing for wind resistance (earthquakes in Kalifornia) goes up non-linearly with height.

Oh, by the way, I'm not disagreeing with anything you said. All those items vs their costs were well presented. Likely I have had different experiences from you and came to a different conclusion, perhaps not unlike the 3 blind men and the elephant.

I'm pleased as punch and flattered too that you were in basic agreement with most of my ideas. Maybe we can just agree to disagree a little bit on some minor issues.

Staircase and railings????? Check out the ones advertised in "Fine Homebuilding" and you might well change your mind.

We live in the volume and pay to build the area that encloses that volume. As mentioned before this "degenerates" to a sphere. In some third world countries, locals have been taught to fashion a rough "dome home" using local materials such as saplings and vines. They then cover this armature with burlap bags saturated with cement, layer after layer. After the cement hardens the outside can be trowled with additional cement for a better waterproofing job. Smoke, window, and door holes are relatively easy to "frame" when the armature is constructed.

Alternatively, if you live where saplings and vines are not available, you make a large pile of sand (dirt can be used but is more work) You lay your cement saturated rags over the pile of dirt. As in the case of the previous example, you make alowances for doors, windows, and chimney. For a larger more complex structure in either building style you connect modules together not unlike the entry way of the stylized igloo connecting to the main room, a small bubble connected to a large bubble. Meanwhile back to example two, the sand/dirt method... after the cement hardens and has been overcoated, the sand is removed. Running water, if available, makes this easy. For a fine interior, plaster the inside.

Wana take these methods high tech? Construct a yurt-like tent structure with rebar covered with metal lath. Shoot it with shotcrete and trowl for appearance.

There are commercial outfits here in the states that inflate balloon-like forms with fans and with rebar in place, shotcrete them.

What these buildings share is a high internal volume to external surface ratio and nothing to disturb the "clear span". They also capture a lot of living space for low bucks. The "eggshell" approach is quite sturdy and examples of this building style have survived hurricanes, tornados, and automobille collision with lilttle or no damage.

So, belatedly, I have mentioned these to further respond to the original query for saving money in building a new home.

Then there is rammed earth in its various forms, far out like Earthships, or almost indistinguishable from the typical ticky tacky litle boxes.

Cordwood is stacked and grouted together to make walls of a home. Bottles can be stacked like cordwood and grouted together with mortar. The various colors of the glass in the bottles can be artistically arranged to make beautiful translucent mosaics. (Cheap AND good looking.)

I could go on and on with examples of lowcost housing from around the world from entire communities of thousands in China living in underground homes to wherever this random walk through my memory banks would lead but virtually none of the examples will fit any stateside CC&R's nor will they usually appeal to the American superconsumer with his conformist tendencies. In fact, code inspections and loans might get a bit sticky.

Patrick

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Our experiences must be different. I just returned from the International Builder's Convention put on by the National Association of Home Builders in Las Vegas last week and that very topic was discussed there.

It seems that for residential construction, at least, the consensus is that up is cheaper than out. The exception noted was situations wherein an elevator would be required for residents unable to negotiate stairs. The other mention made of cheap square footage was basements. Again, the trend was for vertical rather than horizontal.

It's for those reasons I'll likely build on a basement with a second story. As a concession to my advancing years, I will put the master bedroom on the main level. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I'm planning on going with insulated concrete forms for the 10' deep basement to get roughly R-50 walls there and structural insulated panels above ground for superior unsulation, sound proofing and air tightness.

[Pat]

Gary, I don't have a basis for authoritatively quantifying our experiential differences. You sort of make me feel like one of the three blind men examining the elephant. The part I got hold of may feel different from the part the next guy grabbed. The difficulty likely arrises from my location. Builders around here are "different" from those in lots of civilized places.

I am a believer in ICFs but am building in formed and poured concrete walls due to my belief that it is better to let people do what they know and do well than to pay them to try to learn how to do something else for the first time on YOUR job. (Great room will be 2x6 stick built) There are 3 ICF buildiers that would come to me and one of them would go turnkey but only works cost plus (a no starter with me)

Seems that deeds speak louder than words and we are in close agreement where the rubber meets the road. I am building a walkout basement right now. It is excavated, has the 2'x2' footers poured and the forms set for the slab. Here they pour the slab first and then the walls. Not what I am used to but acceptable after they explained the details. The basement will be only under the great room (kitchen, dining, living, computer/office spaces). The ground floor will also have a master suite wing slab on grade with perimeter walls of cast concrete (entire master suite minus the sitting room will be a safe room.) Upstairs will have a bathroom and a guest room plus a WIFE'S room for teas, projects, whatever. Half of the great room has a vaulted ceiling. The basement has a guestroom/saferoom, bathroom, second kitchen, game room (read- pool table and fireplace), and some storage and mechanical spaces.

The shop/garage/tractor and implement building is turned 45 degrees off the axis of the rest of the house but is joined to the house by a common corner and a triangular space. This multipurpose bld will be finished on the outside just like the house, same brick trim, siding, roofing (standing seam metal roof). I bought engineered steel trusses and columns from Miracle Steel to make a 36 by 48 ft building with a 21 by 48 ft shed on the side of it (2 in 12 pitch shed roof). Except for the perimeter located columns and trusses the interior is completely clear span. I went with 12 ft wall height and a 12 in 12 gable roof with eaves to match the house. Roof peak is 30 ft above the slab floor. This leaves plenty of space for expanding the second floor of the house above the shop and garage (over 1000 sq ft plus space near eaves made usable by dormers)

In the garage under the gable end away from the house there is 3 each 10 ft wide roll up garage doors. The two on the outside are 8 ft tall and the center one is 14 ft (max interstate legal height is 13'6") The interior wall between the 3 car garage and the shop has a bump out in the middle to accomodate a longer vehicke in the center slot.

I went for 8 ft porch depth across the front of the house and 10 ft on the west end, the south side, and part of the east end not covered by shop except for the portion of the back porch that is over the walk out of the walk out basement. The builder thinks 14 ft would be nice since it is the cover over the covered patio below. Fine by me, my wife hasn't been told but it will make her quite happy.

I want to work out some arrangement for having a portion of the back porch (southern exposure and great view of ponds) able to be converted to "screened in" for warm weather and "glassed in" to make a sun room in cool weather. I'm open to suggestions on this convertible thing (and anything else for that matter). I don't want it to be too much of a chore. Individual pieces must be easily handled one at a time for putting into and removing from storage and in/deinstalling. I thought of large expanses of screen material with velcro but some braces would have to be installed to keep the wind from bowing it in and out a lot. ...and what about windows for the sun room season?

You sound like you have your materials concept down pretty good. Not to raise an alarm BUT be careful in selecting your prefab pannel supplier as there have been some horror stories in that arena.

Including basement, I'm building 3 stories but am spreading out a bit as well. Maybe I am embracing both concepts up and out.

Patrick

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color="blue"> "be careful in selecting your prefab pannel supplier as there have been some horror stories in that arena" </font color>

I spoke with suppliers at IBC and made one decision with which I'm very happy. My first SIP structure isn't going to be my home. I'm going to build a shop with SIP's and use that experience as a part of my learning curve before I build my home.

For the purposes of learning and for other reasons I intend to incorporate either an upstairs apartment or a two story living area in one end of this structure. The building will more than accomodate something like that as I'm building it to be used for semi tractors I own. I have to admit smiling a bit as I read your explanation to me about the door size and trucking height limits. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

One suggestion I might make to you would be to consider a 12' wide 14' door in the center of your garage. If you're going to be pulling in anything that needs the 14' height you'll appreciate the extra clearance on the sides, believe me. With only 10' width you're really cutting it close with mirrors on anything big. I think it'll be more aesthetically pleasing as well, with the center door larger overall instead of just taller.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I hope this helps. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Chillimau]

Air infiltration or ventilation will be a concern with an attached shop/garage. All the smells from the shop/garage will migrate through the house if "typical" methods are used. Sounded like the mechanicals will be in the basement. That'll help.

Have you considered residential fire sprinklers? The little bit I have read makes a convincing case for them. A few hundred gallons to fight a fire vs a few thousand gallons of water from a fire hose. Less water, smoke damage. Wirsbro has a system that can be plumbed with PEX and incorporated into the cold water supply side of things, not requiring a seperate water system and eliminating stagnant water. My understanding of Wirsbro, is that they are not very DIY friendly, but maybe other companys are. If I remember correctly NFPA Artice 13 applies to residential fire sprinkler design and install.

Gary

[earthmother]

You may also want to look into using recycled material. Things like old wood floors put through a planner look great. Look through want ads for building material that can be used: brick, stone, slate, wood, etc. Don't skimp on insulation, good windows and doors. You may be able to use individual pieces of furniture for the kitchen and bathroom. An old sink placed into an antique dresser adds a lot of character. Claw foot tubs are in style. Think "junk chic". Also think of what you really NEED and what you want. Example- do you really need a 25 cf refrigerator or will a 12cf one work? It's nice to have 2 1/2 baths, but do you really need to buy ( and clean) that many toilet bowls. Look in books, want ads, watch building shows on TV, speak to your contractor for additional ideas. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] These are just some ideas. Make your home individual to you, not just a cookie cutter house. Also remember that bigger the house the more money to build and maintain.

[Pat]

Gary, A coupe things I forgot to say before... Do you have termite problems in Indiana? Neither termites (nor their friendly gut inhabitants) can digest or get nutritional value from the EPS of which the ICFs are constructed BUT they sure as heck will extensively tunnel through it and can use the ICF as a nice protected tunnel material through which they will, if able reach WOOD. I only know of one mfg of ICFs that includes a termiticide but my info could be obsolete. If I went ICF I intended to have a soil treatment for termite infestation prevention. Here we have subterranean termites and they will make mud tunnels up your stem walls to get to the wood. They need to stay in the tunnels where the relative humidity is to their liking till they hit wood. Frequent inspections and physical removal of tunnels stops them from getting to the wood BUT it isn't practical to inspect their progress in tunneling through the EPS of an ICF on the way to the wood. There are other insects which have wrecked havoc with subterranean structures. Lots of info in the earth sheltered home community about bugs messing up foam plastic and tuneling through expensive waterproofing membranes.

I'm not suggesting changing your choice of materials but I would consider some defensive additions.

Oh, by the way... We too are putting the master suite on the ground floor AND making all stairways simple straight shots a minimum of 4 ft wide as a preparedness technique for advancing age. We were seriously considering a residential elevator or at least reserving a shaft for later installation should it become neccessary but instead opted for wide straight staircases that would lend themselves to easy retrofit of a chair lift. The smallest door (except for a non-walk-in-closet) that we are installing is a 3-0 to permit wheelchair passage if required. We are trying to plan for the (we hope) distant future with a design that will permit us to occupy this house as long as possible.

Best to you in your new house quest.

Patrick

[Chillimau]

Ditto on everything Patrick said about the ICFs. They don't have a "concrete" answer for the termite problem. I questioned one distributor and they wouldn't even address the question. Hows that for customer service? Polysteel is the only I know that has a borate treatment.

I have current experience with the foam problem. I have a slab on grade foundation, stem wall with the floor poured in later. They insulated around the inside perimeter of the stemwall with foam board and guess what..... the termites have a way to the wood. I have two places where the exterminator comes to retreat every so often.

If you don't want termites in your foam, don't put it below grade.

Gary

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Termites are certainly a problem in parts of my county here. Most of the time those problems are relatively near riverbanks but I'd always go with a termite treatment just to be on the safe side.

I'm going with the same doorway width minimums if not larger. By the time you install the casing trim and doors themselves even a 36" door allows something far closer to a 34" opening.

[Pat]

Gary, We look like some sort of good ole boy network, backing each others frivolous claims...

Polysteel dealer in Purcell was the only builder who would do a turn key for me but only cost plus so I went elsewhere. Termites were a part of my decision matrix. Oh by the way, Polysteel isn't exactly my favorite ICF by a margin.

Some ICFs are harder to fill without leaving voids. Some ICF manufacturers don't sanction much vibrating to elliminate trapped air. Some mfg just say put a piece of wood against the wall and give it a few gentle raps. The above three NEGATIVES are all Polysteel. I talked to an ex Polysteel distributor up near Edmond. He still had Polysteel inventory but wouldn't build with it. It might be available at discount if your interested.

There are wall straightening fixtures with adjustable turnbuckles that are "tweaked" after the walls are filled with concrete and before it sets up. This gives walls that are square, plumb, and true. I've seen several ICF walls that are wavy. It isn't as simple as assembling Lego blocks and adding concrete.

Oh, and another myth... ICF walls do not (under most circumstances) have an R value anywhere near 50. That is propaganda (a bogus fairy tale that misrepresents scientific fact) and unfortunately it is repeated over and over. Under some conlditions ICF walls exhibit some thermal characteristics similar to R-50 walls. This gets abbreviated to ICF = R-50 which just isn't so. It isn't so in a plain wall and it sure isn't so with fenestration.

I am an avid supporter of ICF construction and think it is a great system but for its real merits not imaginary ones.

Patrick