Patrick, Would you still have done a basement if you couldn't have done a walk-out? I like the thought of a walk out but would end up with the house literally on the back 40 to find suitable site.
The HUD site has a lot of info on alternative building systems. Here is a link HUD Building Publications May be too late in the design process to be of much help.
Gary
Gary and Clint (charter members of the OK GOBs (Good Ole Boys). I am happy to announce that I have attained entrance to the GOB although as a probationary neophyte initiate.
About walkout basements or regular basements where conditions are not super conducive... You can "borrow" dirt and make a small hill. Insert your walkout basement into this small hill. There is no particular water problem as your basement floor is actually at or (if you prefer) above original grade.
The general original slope where I am doing my basement was 4 ft per hundred. Not very steep. One of my options was to build the basement with walkout at original grade and build a LARGE pad around it to accomodate the rest of the house (I only have basement under a portion of this design. The banks around the pond (our southern and SW view) were pretty high and obscurred about 2/3 of the water's surface from the elevaton of the basement's back door under that sceanario.
I chose a more intensely manipulative approach where we basically did some fairly extensive terraforming. The basement excavation is about 9 1/2 ft below original grade and 3-5 ft below the varying water table or more in wet times. B U T we have a much improved view and the extra dirt made a new pond dam, repaired a blown out one, and fixed some horrendous erosion dammage. The front of the house at the entry is just nicely above original grade and the NE corner of the garage is only a couple feet below grade but is allowed for in the excavation plan, not yet fuly implemented. I have a floor plan for the basement to post. I will post it and a narrative explanation next.
Wouild I have done a non-walkout basement? Maybe. I wanted a walkout basement so I did it but if for some reason a walkout wasn't possible... hmmmm I don't know for sure. I didn't have to noodle on that. I could have done a basement without a walkout but the drain system would have been even more important, probably the same design though, don't know how to improve it much. I wouldn't want to depend on pumps for water control. I prefer and would only accept draining to daylight. I can buy into pumping sewage because I will have alternate bath rooms NOT IN THE BASEMENT in case of extreme conditions, loss of power etc. but a long period of absence and a power outage could be a flood. Sure there are redundant systems, batt backups etc but in my experience Murphy has never been able to mess with gravity.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
The promised basement floor plan, a work in progress. Some of it is decided for certain as the footers are poured but some is being decided along the way. Chime in if you have an idea. I'd rather not hear after it was built that you could have made such and such a sugestion.
First my caveats and excuses... I scanned in a mosaic made from four different pieces of paper (my architectural ap, like most S/W wasn't totally ready for market.)
I have written in some numbers. the circled numbers are rooms/spaces. the other numbers are things I will mention/describe.
1. Guest bedroom with about 11 1/2 by 15 finished dimensions exterior walld are a foot thick steel reinforced concrete. Interior walls same but 8". Steel door, steel interior storm shutters.
2. Window to meet egress requirements. I'm not required to build to code but I will always meet or exceed code level quality.
3. Cal King bed
4. table
5. chair
6. closet with bifold doors
7. Steel door 3-0 with 3 deadbolts for flying debris resistance.
8. Bath room
9. 3-0 door
10. linen closet
11. counter, cabs, sink
12. WC
13. tub/shower I might opt to take more room from storage space and make a separate tub with doorless shower enclosure
14. Kitchenette
15, 16, 17,18. refer, stove, sink counter (haven't finished the kitchenette design yet) but it will support entertaining in the basement and backyard cookouts
19. Mech space and or storage. This might shrink to a small freezer enclosure and a closet, giving up space to living area.
20. freezer
21. stairs to main level.
22. pool table
23. fire place (in corner probably) most likely propane direct vent gas log with self generating millivolt system and thermostat and piezo electric ignition (no outside electricity required)
Rural water to be avail soon (that is what I have trenched in awaiting system turn on by water dist) It is lake water (rain water) and supposed to be soft... LUXURY) Our well water is so hard it can bruise you in the shower. I'l put in a softener/water treatment loop and use it or not, depending. I love our well water and could plumb it in to supply just the drinking water and any irrigation we choose to do from that source. Alternatively I might go with an RO unit for drinking water and the ice makers. I have two new ones I got on close out at Sears on deeeeeeep discount.
Hope I didn't mess up toooo much.
Pat
Basement would be a good location for inside part of heat pump. The floors and outer walls will not transmit noise and vibration very much. I'm still waffling on the idea of also having a wood stove in the basement just because. Not instead of but in addition to the gas log. I'm a belt and suspenders kinda guy.
I'll probably put some coat hanging pins along the wall of the bed room but inside the pool room to take coats when coming in from the cold. No carpet in the entry maybe no carpet in the pool room or the whole basement, still awaiting decisions.
Just out side the french doors is a paved covered patio suitable for outdoor cookouts even if it is raining but not blowing toooooo strongly. The roof of the patio is the deck of the wrap around porch of the main level. The part of the main level porch that is over the walkout basements patio will be about 14 ft deep N-S and as wide as the basement, 35 ft. The patio cover/porch deck will be concrete. By the time you do it right in wood or the new plastic encapsulated wood fiber boards with water proofing membranes and pressure treat and on and on the price is as high as concrete suspended in the air and concrete will outlast the wood approach and not be bothered by snow and rain.
The mosaic I scanned in is about 1/4 inch or so larger than my scanner so the west wall isn't shown but only was just barely missed.
The as built dimensions of the basement are oiutside dimensions of 35 ft E-W and 37 ft N-S Ceiling height hasn't been fully determined except that it will be a minimum of 8 ft finiished ceiling. The only possible exception might be 7'6" under a reinforcing "I" beam in the safe/guest room depending on the final decisions on the poured ceiling.
Other things to decide include how to insulate the walls and the slab on the outside. It is better from a performance and humidity control standpoint to insulate the outside of a basement wall. This isolates/decouples the huge thermal mass from the ground and its condensation promoting temperatures. You still get the benefits of the high thermal mass but the walls take on the average indor temp setting of your thermostat which is above the dew point much more of the time.
For the first year or maybe two, I may have to either run a dehumidifier in the basement or have it zoned for extra ventilation/dehumidification. This is a transient phenomenon brought on by the water in the cement that isn't chemically consumed. Once dried out, that's that.
Oh by the way about the worst possible way to look at the attachment is in a web browser. PGV (Paul's Grafic Viewer) or better yet Irfan View a freebie in a limited version. http://www.irfanview.com/
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Plumbers came a day early (man and adult son). Builder and partner (John and John) were there for a couple hours. Everyone was a couple inches taller in about 5 minutes (acumulating mud on shoes). Plumbers got there about 0945 and were finished and gone by 1230. IT helps to have a good plumber, savy builder and the customer all on site to get decisions made on this "design a little-build a little" project. Talk about JIT (Just In Time) scheduling WHEW!
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Pat,
I do appreciate your running narrative, as I will be going through building in a few years. Your floor plan looks good, I spent a few minutes looking at it. What computer program did you use to draw it up and would you reccommend it?
I went to Pauls Valley this morning w/ my boss and as we drove through the gently rolling hills I kept wondering if we were South enough and Central enough to see the "South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse" . . . er well farmhouse hole in the ground. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
Clint
si vis pacem para bellum
Clint, I did this design on Punch Professional Home Design Suite ver 4.5.1 It is pretty reasonably priced (at Staples) It has lots of neat features and a lot of points of frustration as well. Mostly it works fine but I am not the easiest to please customer as I have both an engineering background as well as an MS in S/W engineering, having taught S/W engineering as an adjunt prof in evening classes. I am critical of virtually all commercial software as most of it is sold before it is really ready. I understand the pressures of the marketplace but that isn't sufficient excuse for this shabby practice.
These folks are decent in the respect that they offer free downloadable upgrades on their website and have a user group to query (like TBN/CBN). I don't use all the features by any means. You can do landscaping with it and design objects like furniture in a 3D design studio. They let you age your plantings so you can see how large the sycamore tree will be in x years and how much shade you get or % of your view blocked and change your mind about location in the virtual world before planting in the real world and finding out 15 years later it was a bad location.
You get 3D virtual walkthroughs in side and out, ground level or via a helicopter. You can print out in various scales. You can print out colored pannels to glue to construction board and build a model in color.
You can fiddle with lighting angles of the sun but it does not support interior lighting design.
Brief digression: Lowe's now has CFL (Compact Fluorescent Lamp) inserts that you put into the ceiling mounted "can" lights. The ballast is rated for 50,000 hours (5x the lamp life of 10,000 hours). It is just a little pricey (low $40's with lamps) but wait, not so bad when analyzed A N D it is a dimable ballast, dimable by standard light dimmer. Standard dimable fluorescent ballasts are way expensive and the dimmer for them is about $100 for a simple low end unit. In general a CFL to replace a 90 watt light that is used 3-4 hrs a day or more saves enough in electricity to pay for the cost of the CFL and about $20 extra. Each set of CFL lamps for this unit will save you about $35 or so X5 is $175 minus the cost of the insert and you still net in excess of $125 in savings. IT takes a while to go through 5 sets of bulbs and you could invest elsewhere but would you do better and would the investment be a sure thing in todays world?
I am happy as I was looking for architectural downlights, cans, eyeballs, etc that used CFL. I will be using these anywhere I expect an average of 3 hours daily usage and would like dimability.
Right now I am in a tradeoff study to decide whether I want a high SEER heatpump or a high efficiency propane boiler for heat and a high SEER A/C unit with high velocity mini-ducts for A/C. Jury is still out. If I go heatpump then have to decide on air to air or ground based. If ground based then with water loop or direct freon in the ground.
Oh by the way... The good ole boys were planninig on using insulaltion (FG batts on the inside of the basement walls. Tsk tsk tsk... The walls in contact with the earth would be at my latitude about 62 degrees down a few feet from the surface. The walls in contact with the 62 degree dirt and insulated on the inside to "protect" the walls from the high inside (72?) temps would stay pretty cool, near 62. Vapor woud penetrate the inner (finished) wall surface, go right through the batt, and condense on the cool concrete wall and run down the wall. The batts would get soggy and not insulate well. Moisture would cause a plethora of problems by growing critters like fungi mold, misdew... yuch!
I am putting 2 inches of EPS on the outside to isolate the walls from the dirt. The slab will then tend to more closely follow the average internal room temp (72?) and stay above the dew point and not cause water problems.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
A made a small but interesting discovery...
I have identified Insul-Drain by Owens Corning as the product I will use to insulate the basement walls on the outside. It also acts as a drain mat that prevents a head of water from building up, hence even a cracked wall will not leak. I searched the local area (Oklahoma city included) and found it. I always like to check at least a second source to make sure I am not doing something real dumb price wise.
I was quoted $2.20/sq ft plus shipping from Denver and I have to take a unit which is seven bundles with 6 each 4x8 sheets per bundle (2 1/4 inches thick).
I can buy it in OKC for $1.42/sq ft with no shipping charge but I have to go get it (100+ mile round trip but right past a favorite gun store and other boy's toys places) I need 1100 sq ft but would have to buy a unit from Denver (plus shipping) It would cost me $2957 plus shipping. OKC will sell me 6 bundles (1152 sg ft) for $1636, a savings of $1321 plus shipping minus a round trip of 100 miles.
There is more to this than just this one savings of $1321. If you hire a "cost plus" builder there is no incentive for him to "work" logistics and acquisitions as he makes a profit based on a percentage of the cost of materials AND labor. Since I am in charge of materials research and procurement I can try to get the most of the best for the least. Sure, my builder will make a nice profit from my house but it won't be based on inflated materials charges or kickbacks.
Now if I cold only get some cooperation from the rain... After four plus months with no significant rain, now that we are building, it snows and rains.
Patrick
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Rain, snow, MUD, and frozen mud combined in varous combinations to impede progress. I slogged about in boots weighing abot 20 lbs each from attached mud and broadcast about 80 lbs of annual rye on the bare soil around the new dam built from basement excavation.
I have become convinced that radiant ceilings are as good as radiant floors in many instances and better in some so am leaning in that direction. Need to get out the ole canoe and leadline and make some pond depth measurements to see if a "pond loop" is feasible for my "ground loop" component of a ground sourced heat pump. Way cheaper than drilling multiple bore holes (wells) and cheaper than trenching (second choice.)
Some advantages of radiant ceilings are: Lower thermal mass so faster response than in-slab, less expensive due to less PEX tubing required, lower hot water temps required which raises geothermal unit efficiency. Now if everyone will just think drying thoughts, maybe I can get on with somem concrete pours...
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
UPDATE: Basement walls were poured Tuesday. Interior forms stripped Wednesday. Floor forms stripped today. Will be ordering PanelDeck (by Polysteel, see www.polysteel.com) soon. Deck forms are 10 inches high and I will pour 4 inch cap on top so ceiling of basement (floor of great room) is 14 inches thick overall. Some of this is concrete and steel and some of it is EPS.
Have F I N A L L Y located a sharp, experienced, and willing HVAC contractor to do the ground sourced heat pump (WaterFurnace Synergy 3 model). Will be gettin out my canoe and plumbing the depths (of my nearest pond) to see if it will support a "pond" loop for the GSHP (Pond Sourced Heat Pump???)
Measured the ACTUAL basement dimensions today...NOt too bad for country boys... NO discernable difference in the length of the two N-S walls. Top of the walls are dead straight by stretched string. South wall is 1 inch longer than north wall 37 ft away. OH WELL. It is a trapezoid but close enough to rectangle.
One bedroom wall ended up 10 inchs thick instead of 8 inches to accomodate the steel FEMA door jamb. I would have had to wait 2-3 weeks to get one to fit 8 inch wall.
Murphy visited me. I was drilling a 2 inch hole in the wall forms to put a plastic pipe in to make a hole for a water line to go through later. (Much easier to form a hole than drill or cut it later.) I started drilling as the first cement truck arrived. Half way through first form the hole saw's shaft broke up. I switched to a larger (an inch larger) saw and continued. Wrapped tar paper over the pipe and secured it with duct tape. Worked fine.
Had more 'crete deliverd than needed... OOPS... now I have a small paved intersection where there is a "T" in my driveway. Note to self: ALWAYS have something formed up to take a little crete even if it is just a few 2x4 boards forming up some 2'x2' squares. You can always use these "stepping stones" later. AH hindsight!
Tractor with pallet forks lifted the forms out of the excavation saving lots of slogging around the periphery in the water and mud. Still some water flowing out of the ground but now with the outside floor forms removed I can put the drain system around the outside of the floor, just on top of the footer and backfill a bour 18-20 inches.
Temps lately have varied from overnight lows of 27 to daytime highs of 83. Ahhhhhhh spring time, the pears have set fruit, the scissor tailed flycatchers have returned from the tropics, and the rye I scattered over the new pond dams is doing fine. Newest pond (#10) is within 18 inches of overflowing.
Any suggestions on how long to "age" it prior to introducing minnows? (fathead minnows) I wlll wait till later in year to add catfish.
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat, I've enjoyed reading the unfolding saga of your house project, and I have gleaned some good info from it as well. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] We've been rebuilding a 102 year old farmhouse for the last year and a half. Right now I'm going hard on a double-crib-to-all-weather-shop conversion. We have a 26 X 32 double corn crib; half is set up for grain, half is set up for ears. There was also a 14 X 32 "lean to" addition which will be the main shop. The adjacent grain compartments are being made into "rooms" for compressor, furnace, tools and parts. We've made the center adjacent compartment the "walk through" to access the rest and to access the main areas of the grainery proper. Of course we've set ceilings in place and have insulated each compartment-turned-room. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img] This conversion is the result of A LOT of thinking about how to make this beautiful building into a useable fabrication shop w/o spoiling the outer facade and farm-like appearance. I'm even leaving the big, outer, heavy roll-back doors in place, then we'll have our insulated segmented garage-type door on the inside of that same opening, sealing off around the edges. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] Our A/C condenser will be in the vented corn-on-the-cob area with a concealed discharge duct through the spaced-siding wall. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img] I took note of that concrete insulation material that you found since we are doing an expansion later this year and will be pouring basement walls. [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]
CJDave
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