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Thread: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

  1. #31
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    CJDave, Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you could leverage off of some of my ramblings. I think I can appreciate some of what you are faced with and are trying to achieve. My previous house was buillt in 1928 as an "in fill" in an older neighborhood with an eclectic mix of architectural styles that included Frank Lloyd Right "Praire Homes", Tudor, post WW II "modern", and about 50% Spanish Mediterranean (Style of ours).

    When we reroofed we reused the original red clay tile wherever it could be seen from the street or from the ground but entire sections were done in new tile where it didn't show. The sizes were different and they couldn't be mixed anyway. The old tile was hand made and had the palm and fingerprints of the artisans embedded in each piece. We had bug and rot damage in many of the windows and some of the French doors. I restored them and only had to replace one window, the center section of a bay window in an add on room from the 60's. I dowled the corners of the weakened windows and used a couple products that might be of interest to you. One was, if I recall, a Minwax brand of wood hardener. The other was some stuff I learned about when restoring rotted wood in a sailboat, "GIT ROT." GitRot probably has work-alike competitors (West et al). It is useful in more than just rot situations. It is a thin viscosity 2 part epoxy. You saturate the area in question and when the epoxy hardens you essentially have something resembling a fiberglass board. Rotted wood that could have been removed is prevented from rotting further. Areas with any integrity left at all become pretty solid, fairly strong, and sure won't deteriorate further. I filled voids with Bondo (like for car bodies). Some trim would have been a real pain to replace and hard to duplicate but was saved by these materials.

    Regarding the baement walls: If you have any DIY inclination, go ICF. Otherwise cast is OK BUT... If you are going to finish off the interior walls of the basement ICF might be worth thinking about. My contractors assumed they would follow their standard procedure: 1. pour the foundation, 2. pour the floor, 3. pour the walls, 4. stick build stud walls inside the cast walls with F/G batts in the cavities. I changed that to insulaltion/drainage mat on the outside and will likely use various finishing methods on the inside of the walls. In the basement bedroom/saferoom I will probably go with wainscoting to the chair rail then carpet to the ceiling. Carpet on the floor and sheetrock ceiling with texture paint. Ceiling is radiant heat (hydronic). Need acoustic treatment for a 6 sided concrete box.

    In the largest basement room (for pool table, fireplace viewing, window gazing) I will probably do something similar but with less plush carpet... more toward indoor-outdoor carpet. If it weren't for the issue of reverberation I wold use taping and joint compound on the cement walls and paint them. I intend to have a firred down sofit around the edges of the rooms to handle ducting, wiring, hydronic piping, etc. These sofits wouldl house the can lights that wold be difficult to embed in the concrete ceiling. I may drop decorative false columns down from that to the floor. These columns would have the outlets for electric, phone, intercom, TV, computer, etc. If I want/need more lighting I can run a decorative beam across the ceiling to accept track lighting, mount ceiling fans, hold the lighting for the pool table, etc. The rough ceiling height is 9 ft 1 1/8 inches from floor slab to the bottom of the decking system's insulation. Subtract from that for carpet and pad and about an inch for radiant heat and drywall in the ceiling.

    Thre are 2 each 4.75 inch dia air ducts molded into the EPS ceiling forming system. The ducts are easy to parallel, especially in pairs so distributing A/C and fresh air is easy. I intend to blow the chilled air down from the ceiling (concentrating on the south end of the spaces) and collect the return air at ceiling level toward the north end of the spaces. I don't think my supply scheme will homogenize the air volume so stale warm moist air should be concentrated toward the ceiling at the north end of the spaces where it can be drawn off.

    Oh, why ICF versus cast walls if you are finishing them with drywall and want conventional electrical outlets? Insulation instalation "does itself" and their are "nailers" in the ICF to accept the same drywall screws you'd use with steel studs which makes drywalling a snap. (ICF is flat and the nailers are much closer together than studs in a wall.)

    There are products like Cactus Board which give a 25 year dry floor guarantee for your basement. It costs about $200 for a fair sized basement but I couldn't use it because I didn't have a "floating" slab. There are dimpled plastic drain products to use on the outside of a basement wall that are cheap and really work to prevent water from standing on the wall. No hydrostatic pressure (head) equals no leaks through the wall even if you have cracks or drilled a hole in the wall.

    Had there been a contractor available to do my basement in ICF I would have gone that way. Now I have to use stuff like the Owens Corning Insul-Drain to get about the same results at greater expense, especially after considering the increase in number of steps requiring labor. With ICF (expensive initial cost) lots of additional steps are avoided and good uniform results are achieved. I am (try to be) a big picture kind of guy. I want to know the installed lifecycle cost not just the initial purchase price. Cheapest initial cost approaches often are not cheapest over a 10 or 20 year period.

    One of my favorite examples is the cost of a 75-90 Watt lightbulb. If it were free it would be a bad bargain if you use it more than about 3 hrs a day. Over the installed life of a CFL (compact fluorescent lamp) you save enough in electricity to pay the purchase cost of the CFL and save an additiional $20 (more or less depending on your electric rate). That means that for every appropriate installation of a CFL you make $20 net profit, over a 100% return on your investment. Not bad these days! Still, the overwhelming majority of light bulb purchasers buy the cheapest bulb. Are they innumerate? (Like illiterate but with numbers) OR WHAT? If most folks don't make the smart decision in buying something simple as a light bulb, what hope is there that they will make the right decisions with heating, ventilating, and air conditioning their homes or insulation or windows, or...

    The concept of NPV (Net Present Value) and lifecycle costing are really not overly complicated and should/could be taught in gradeschool but most college grads haven't been properly exposed to the concepts. OH WELL!!!

    //soapbox mode off//

    Although I think I have found successful work-arounds for not having used ICF, using ICF would have make life far easier in the long run. Engineered floor trusses would have worked for me and was our original approach until I researced the alternatives (my builder seized the idea as a good one) but all things considered (number of different operations and tasks to do and materials to install) I think that the PanelDeck is a good choice. The floor will not be as resilient as a wood floor but most of it will be carpeted so will still be comfortable walking. Small deflections in a fair sized (37X34 suspended slab) are to be expected under a live load and contribute to comfort, this is unlike the solid unyielding slab-on-grade feel.

    Best of luck to you in your coming endeavors.

    Pat

    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  2. #32
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    Pat, I've printed out your last post and am adding it to the folder marked: "Phase Three". Phase III is the west expansion of our farmhouse. Phase I was adding a garage Phase II was sawing out the center core and going to an open design with an exposed beam ceiling. We still have a kitchen re-do in the works for later this year ahead of beginning work on Phase III, and of course my ongoing grainery-to-shop project. I went to an auction today and just about completely outfitted the shop in power tools. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] A nice 14" cut-off saw, a 6" bench grinder, an 8" bench grinder, a 7" portable grinder, some misc. drills and a lot of grinding wheels and cut-off saw blades. We also got some conduit benders we'll need in about two weeks to start the electrical end of the project. We still need a big air compressor, a stick welder (have a nice MIG), a metal welding table and some big vises. We probably have at least a month of construction left on the project before the first arc can be struck, or the first tractor can be fixed in there. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] We're pretty excited at how the shop project is shaping up and even more so that it isn't spoiling the looks of that classic farm structure. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  3. #33
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    CJDave, Congrats on your "score" at the auction. My experience at auctions has been mixed at best. Got a 300 gal diesel tank on a stand for a deccent price and H O U R S of standing in the sun. Often used tools seem to go for as much as the same or better new at the store... go figure. Probably "auction fever."

    I recommend a Lincoln arc welder known variously as a buzz box, tomb stone, or whatever. I have an AC/DC one. I think it is 225 AC or 135 DC or is it 235 AC and 125 DC? Also avail cheaper in AC only version. Personally never heard of one wearing out. Switches are replaceable but never needed to on mine. It should have a 240 VAC 50 amp circuit. There are a lot of these and come up for sale at decent prices. (Bought mine new in last century, maybe 15 yrs ago.)

    Please keep us updated on your projects as they are quite interesting. If I can recover from the unexpected gust of laziness that hit me yesterday and lingers on, I will get out my canoe and plumb the depths of my best pond candidate for a "pond loop" for ground sourced heat pump. Cheapest way to get a loop if it meets the depth requirements (unknown depth).

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  4. #34
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    Pat:

    Youve got some vacation coming. Use a week or so of it. Let the mind do some work rather than directing it!

    Egon

  5. #35
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    Pat, I see on the news that a few homes in OK got their FEMA doors tested today. [img]/forums/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] NO BIG MYSTERY that you are building a bunker first and a home second. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Re: welders. Yes, I know the "tombstones" well. We had one on our ranch in California for YEARS. I'm just going to hang back and watch for an exceptional buy on a stick machine, and THAT will most likely determine the Make and Model. AC plus DC is a must, however,.....on that issue I'm going to be stubborn. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Welder primary power is no problem; I have a 100 AMP service to the grainery now; the ONE outward sign that the building might be more than corn-on-the-cob storage with a few light bulbs. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  6. #36
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    CJDave, Please don't take this badly, I'm just pointing out something I always found humorous. If you don't miind "going public", tell us how many acres your California ranch was. Folks that I worked with in various employ over the years in California frequently refered to their "Ranch" and many had horses. My best guess at the median size of the ranches discussed would be about 20 acres. California real estate types often refer to 5 ac with permission to keep a pony as a ranchette.

    I have neighbors and acquaintances here in south central Oklahoma who ALWAYS refer to their place as just that, THEIR PLACE. Few with under a 1000 ac refer to their place as a ranch unless they have a brand and are big time in heavy breeding of registered stock. More are willing to call their place a farm. It is almost as if there is a social stigma of seeming to be too proud that is being avoided. It is a pretty deeply ingrained phenomena. I don't care a lot one way or the other but feel mildly embarassed when my wife refers to our 160+ as our ranch when talking to "full growed neighbors."

    Well, gues it is time for me to get to work on the new RANCH HOUSE!

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  7. #37
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    Pat, Anything that grows anything in California is referred to as a "ranch'. I have always thought that was kind of funny too, but being a fourth generation native CA guy it was also "normal". We had 90 acres, mostly in hay, and we farmed another forty, also in hay. In the area where we were there were scads of quarter horse ranches. It was known as the "Cowboy Capital" with Rodeo Stock Contractor offices on the main street . As you probably know, horses are quite finicky about the hay you give them; if it's too coarse, they leave half of it behind in the manger [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] . It was a struggle for us to raise the kind of tonnage per acre that the real alfalfa guys across the valley on the alluvial soils could raise, but our hay was VERY FINE STEMMED. Because of that, it fetched premium prices since any animal would eat it and clean up the manger. We furnished ALL the hay that the local Feed and Tack store sold at retail a bale at a time to girls with a horse in the backyard. There are "ranches" in CA that are diversified farming operations with tens of thousands of acres, and NO animals of any kind. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] Here in the Midwest, I've had to adjust my thinking to say: "Farm" since they correctly refer to the corn-bean-alfalfa producing areas as "farms". [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] We just love our little Iowa "farmette". We bought the front two acres and all of the buildings off an operating Iowa farm. We got the farmstead, they kept the farmground. [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img] OH yeah......I HAVE a brand; we had a dairy and some beef stock at one time and I still have our brandin' iron and have kept the registry alive just for old times sake. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  8. #38
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    CJDave (et al), After getting an inch and three eighths rain considerable silt washed into our basement excavation burying the footer in most places under considrable fine mud kept from drying by continuing slow seep of water from the excavaton walls. With more rain possible, after lunch the next day my wife and I donned rubber boots and attacked the mess with shovels and used an electrick sump pump on the deeper water. We managed to get most of the top of the footer cleaned off (not so's you'd want to eat of it) but good enough to allow placement of geotextile fabric. Then we placed/glued perforated 4 inch pipe in place in the shape of a rectangle around the junction of the stem wall and the footer. Next we covered the pipe with 1 1/2 inch washed (septic) gravel in excess of 4 inches over the top and the outside. I was able to dump gravel with the FEL on the tractor from the top of the excavation and not have to do toooooooo much gravel shoveling.

    We added a covering geotextile cloth, tucked and overlapped by the first and then more gravel over that to make darned sure no wind or rain could mess up our invested labor. We finished a little past 8 PM and broke for showers and supper.

    Today We added drain pipe across the walk out (south) side. This will be covered by a slab but just in case water might run around the outside of the basement and get into the walkout area, I wanted it to drain away. I cold bget the FEl close enough to place about 1/2 to 2/3 of the gravel. I stood up a couple 5 gal buckets where I was dumping gravel each time to fill them without having to shovel. We did plenty of shoveling as it was both yesterday and today. Still a bit stiff and sore. My wifes one knee had been jurting for a few weeks but seemed to be cured by yesterdays exeertions.... go figure. Anyway, I used the 5 gal buckets to transfer gravel to where lumber piles and stacks of rebar prevented tractor passage.

    We ran short on perforated pipe but had some equivalent non-perf so now my wife is a qualified pipe perforator. Who says a retired FEMALE BEAN COUNTER/PAPER PUSHER can't run power tools!

    My PanelDeck to make the ceiling of the basement and floor of the space above is on order (horizontal analog to ICF). LIkewise the ICF for the master suite and the PanelDeck for it. Should get product delivered on site within about two weeks, starting 2 days ago. The forms on the outside of the basement walls are still in place as the tops of them will be the forms for the outer edges of the ceiling/floor.

    I sure will be glad when the basement ceiling is done. I can't finish the grading for the master suite or the utility room and shop/garage/tractor-implement storage until then because the basement excavation leaves a gaping hole where I need compacted dirt for the slabs of the other ground floor wings to sit.

    As soon as the basemenet ceiling is done and peripheral forms are stripped then we can remove the rest of the exterior forms and comence backfilling around the basement. Then we can dig the piers and pour the slab for the master suite and pour the slabs for the util room/laundry, shop, garage, and tractor-implement storage. Once those slabs are poured, we can begin to parallellize the work and get going on the shop/garage/etc at one end and the master suite at the other end. I favor running the shop/garage/etc to completion (at least dried in) first so I can use it for protected indoor materials storage in support of the rest of the project.

    Here is a shot showing the magnificient view of a gravel pile, a dirt pile, and our Dakota (nice pond view beyond the clutter.)

    The wall height above slab is 9 ft 1 1/8 inch. The doorway leads to the guest bedroom (about 11 1/2 x 15 ft). You can see the blockout for the window (3x5 ft). Look closely and you see the 8 each 3/4 inch bolts embedded in the 12 inch thick wall beside the window blockout. These are to secure the giant piano hinges which mount the interior steel storm shutters. Just off camera to the right is the SW corner where the fireplace goes. The large opening is 16 ft clear span with a 23inch deep by 12 inch wide cast in place beam with 5 each 1 inch rebar in the bottom. This is the "header" for French doors and windows (max glass for the 16 ft).

    Fill and a patio slab will bring up the grade level just outside the 16 ft opening to within an inch of the basement slab. It will have a 14 ft wide roof over it. Haven't decided how big to make the patio slab. Probably aome bigger than the roof but I'm open to suggestions.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  9. #39
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    That's some great looking concrete work, Pat. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Nobody likes good concrete work more than I do, and I've been fortunate to have had some real experts do jobs for me in the past. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Nothing tougher than getting a heavy rain on a below-grade construction site. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] Pat, having a bad knee feel better after hard work is fairly typical. My dad had a bad knee almost his whole life till the replacement techniques got refined, and his knee never felt better than after a day of handling baled hay. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Pat, do you think that you could make a list of the abbreviations one of these days and post it? I'm not quite sure what all of them stand for. [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  10. #40
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    Re: South Central Oklahoma Farmhouse

    Looking good Pat.
    With all the work you are doing a new wardrobe may be in order.

    Egon

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