...and payday is on Friday.

[Pat]

Engineering is a series of tradeoffs. Housebuilding is no exception. I ended up choosing to have a bathroom and a second kitchen in the basement although with other considerations it meant that the waste effluent will have to go uphill to the leach field. To avoid having to use a "macerator" type pump that grinds and pumps solids (poor MTBF, i.e. trouble prone) we are placing a conventional septic tank downslope of the walkout basement but its output will not go directly to a leach field it will be pumped uphill by a liquid handling pump to the level of the septic tank serving the ground floor and upstairs.

Anyone out there have experience in systems that have to do things like this? Do you plumb the output of the pump to a "T" at the output of the "main tank?" If it weren't for a "stiring up the solids" issue, I'd be leaning toward sending the pump output to the main tank. My previous reading on septic systems gave me the impression that you wanted the last chamber in the system to be fairly undisturbed and stay full with its over flow being nearly clear water, solids having settled out. Pumping a batch up from the lower tank would certainly stirr things up.

Perhaps I should consider one extra chamber in the lower tank. This would fill from natural gravity flow from what is ordinarily the last chamber and not contain anything that wouldn't have ordinarily gone to the leach field. Then it could be pumped as a batch to the leach field without puting anything in the leach fiield that it wouldn't have already had. (some of this started sounding like a "horse with no name")

Sure don't wan't to cause stuff to go to the leach field that it shouldn't get. I would like to have enough reserve capacity in the lower tank such that it would not "back up" during power outages of several hours or maybe a couple days if that is practical. In an extended outage I will, of course, fire up a generator to "recharge" the frige and freezer, get weather reports on sat TV, and such so electricity to run the pump will be available.

Ideas?

Patrick

[wingnut]

The setup that I inherited in Alberta either meant that there were no standards ... or nobody worried about the standards.
Basically, I had a very large septic tank (2 chamber, with the intake into the smaller chamber. The solids ... being solid, stayed at the bottom of the first chamber and gave the bacteria something to occupy their time with. The liquid spilled over into the large second chamber. Periodically, determined by a float switch, the effluent pump would come on and pump that second chamber out. (The system did work very well, never froze up even at -40 ... and I only had it pumped out twice in 8 years and I kept the cost down by having him deposit the "nightsoil" in an unused area of the back 40.)
The reason I mentioned "standards" is that the place the effluent went was a swampy area about 1000 feet from the house. Would that qualify as a leach field>
I never bothered "fixing" the system ... other than some pump maintenance ... since there was only odor when the pump was running and only noticeable if you were standing beside the outlet (in the swampy area - so not very likely).
Anyway ... the moral of the story is that there's no reason that the hose couldn't have gone to another tank at a higher elevation ... the sewage pump was certainly more than strong enough.

pete

[WVBill]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
To avoid having to use a "macerator" type pump that grinds and pumps solids (poor MTBF, i.e. trouble prone)

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a bathroom in our basement that has a "hung sewer" and an effluent pump up to our septic system. Not a single problem in 4 1/2 years (XX Cross fingers XX).

[Chillimau]

Don't know the answer but here is a link to it. Okla DEQ Individual and small septic rules (According to OK Law anyway)I would think the section "lift stations" would answer your question.

Gary

[Pat]

Hey Pete, I thought the "good ole boys" 'round here were casual in their engineering... 50 gal oil drum with holes punched in it with a pick axe burried in (preferably) sandy soil as the combination septic tank/leach tank. When it quits working they burry another one and switch the connections. Just leave the old one burried. WOW!

Thanks for the reassurance. I want a three chambered tank or a two chambered tank with an additional tank on its output to be sure I'm not pumpiing any solids into the leach field. Ordinarily the last chamber gently and slowly overflows to the leach field, leaving any solids (some float) in the tank. Pumpin will stir the , uh err ahh... stuff so I don't want the tank with the pump to have any solids floating or otherwise. I need to remember that the second chamber should be tapped into down a ways from the top to avoid floating stuff as well as the solids that sink. I think it will be best to pump the third/last tank/chamber directly to the leach field so as to not homogenize the contents of the output chamber of the "main" septic system up the hill. This implies a surge capacity for the leach field in excess of the quantity to be pumped in a batch. Sounds like a good argument for the "Infiltrator" system instead of traditional perf pipe and gravel or shredded tires in the leach field.

Thanks again for the sanity check on the design ideas.

Patrick

[Pat]

WVBill, Could you give me a little more detail on your system? And what is a hung sewar? Sounds like a plumbing problem rather than a system description.

I read the adds and got info mailed to me from the folks who advertise the toilets that flush uphill. Big technological surprise... a small holding tank with a level switch to operate a grinder pump. Not a bad idea B U T if the power goes out it won't take long to come to a halt. I hope to have enough capacity to wait out a decent outage. The longest outage here in last 5 years was 3 days. Outages are frequent but virtually always less than 24 hours. I figure I can walk out to the shop (actually a part of the house) where the emergency generator will be located and give it a yank if the outage lasts more than a few hours and interferes with my entertainment, eating, or use of the basement facilities.

My advisors and my limited experience (clorinator macerators in marine heads) tells me that pumps for grinding and pumping solids have a higher failure rate than pumps for liquids. Even if they lasted as well, which could be the case if you pay enough, they are more expensive to buy and maintain. Still, if the cost were the same and MTBF were the same, I'd want the larger tank system I am planning due to the relatively unreliable nature of our rural coop power grid.

I assume your pump pumps into the first chamber as if the stuff got there by the normal route?

Patrick

[Pat]

Gary, Thanks. I will read that stuff as soon as I can connect through that link. It keeps refusing me but I'll find a way.

Thanks again,

Patrick

[egon]

Pete:
About 55 years ago when my Father installed a septic system on the farm an inspector was sent out to okay the system.

Egon

[egon]

Pat:

As per Pete's post.

Pump out septic tanks are not uncommon. They have a float activated pump and go directly to the mound or the leach field.
This pump is quaranteed to fail on a long weeked when the weather is less than desirable.
You could pump into the first chamber of the upper tank or direct into the field system. Should not make any diference. If going to the leach field make sure the upper tank doesnt syphon back to the lower tank.

Egon

[wingnut]

Egon .... I'd like to meet the inspector that approved the setup I had .... and find out where he gets booze that good!

And I'll have to agree on the pump failure .... after the first one, I made sure that I had a spare on hand.

Pat, I forgot to mention what happens when the scenario Egon describes comes about. In the middle of winter, when it's -40 and there's a pretty good blizzard going, the float switch doesn't ... float or switch ... and eventually you find out about it ... when you go down to the basement and step into what being coming BACK from the septic tank .... oh joy!
And you get to go outside and shovel off the lid of the tank, and grab the rope (remember to wear industrial strength, elbow length rubber gloves) and pull and pull and pull ... and when you get it out, you check to see whether it's the switch (I went through 4 in 8 years) or the pump (I replaced one but discovered afterwards it was the switch after all ... so I had a spare). Then you need to put the pump and switch back down the tank, make sure it's running, and ... when the level is low enough ... go downstairs with the shop vac and suck ... suck ... suck .... did I mention it SUCKS!

After the second time (I do not learn quick and I'm awful lazy), I installed 2 lights on the post beside the tank (it was there to mount and protect the electrical outlet for pump power). One light was connected to an connector I fastened in between the power and pump switch cables ... so if the pump was drawing power, the light was on. This made sure I was aware that the pump was running too long (it got clogged several times ...and the float switch got hung up more than a few times). The other light was connected to a level switch, as was a buzzer in the house.

Ah, memories.

pete