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Thread: ...and payday is on Friday.

  1. #11
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Egon, I got the basic idea... My concern is over a small part of the system's hookup and function. If you are pumping out the final chamber of a septic tank and the exit pipe is located properly, the pumping action shouldn't stir the tank much, hence few solids or floating foamy junk should be drawn out and deposited in the leach system.

    Same thing for my "lower" tank probably but a third chamber would make me more comfortable. If the lower tank were pumped into the outlet chamber of the upper tank I am concerned that it would stir the tank quite a bit and cause floating debris and settled solids to get mixed into the effluent on its way to leachdom. That is why I think I would like to pump the lower tank's third chamber directly to the leach field.

    Yes, I am aware of back siphon action. My next door (hatch?) neighbor got me out of bed one morning at 0500 because his boat was sinking (we both lived on our sailboats next to each other in adjacent slips.) His boat was only a few months old and I had critiqued his plumbing when he gave me "THE TOUR" when first bringing the boat into the Marina. I was a volunteer vessel examiner with the U.S. Coast Guard Aux unit in San Diego for 10 years. I pointed out that his galley sink drain was Y'd together with his automatic bildge pump outlet and put to the same through hull penetration without a seacock. He assured me that the open hole at the bottom of the sink would break any syphon action.

    Well, within just a few months his automatic bildge pump failed due to corrosion on the terminal strip (poorly located) so he used the manual override each evening and pumped til the pump cavitated (caught air) then switched it off and went to bed. On this occasion his wife had left the sink strainer in place with some vegetable peelings in it and they shut off the air flow. When he pumped the bilge out he charged the syphon loop. When he shut the pump off, the ocean began syphoning into his bilge. At 0500 when his wife's feet hit the floor she was standing in water and some of the floorboards were awash. (Note the floor boards are at least 6 ft above the bottom of the engine space and bottom of the bildge)

    I kept an emergency pump with a 20 ft power cord and large aligator clips for connecting directly to a battery and a 15 ft discharge hose (about 1 1/4 or so ID). It was a Rule brand 1500 gal/hr unit. Luckily, his batts were not submerged, just his shiny new diesel engine. He was grateful for the assistance. It is said that the best bilge pump is a scared man with a bucket... but for only a little while.

    Long reply but thought you might be entertained by syphon story. Many boats have also been in danger of sinking at anchor or tied to the dock because of anti-syphon devices on marine heads. They are a spring loaded valve that is supposed to open up and introduce air into an inverted "U" shaped half loop. the delicate spring gets fouled with "stuff" being pumped out and the rest is predictable.

    I would think that a riser pipe from a "T" connection coming from the lower tank to the output line of the upper tank would vent to the surface. Would put a 180 degree turn in it so it would not collect debris or rain. That vent should prevent any syphon action.

    I'm open for suggestions if you know of a better or easier way.

    Patrick
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  2. #12
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Pat:

    In my set up, I have a basement bathroom (shower, sink, toilet). These drain into a sump tank buried in the basement slab. It is about three feet deep and 20" in diameter and has a top that seals it.

    In the sump tank sits my sewage effluent (grinder) pump. The pump has a float switch that cycles it on and off. Through the sealed top is a vent (connected to the vent system upstairs) and a 2" PVC pipe from the output of the effluent pump. There is a one-way check valve right at the top of the tank. From the check valve the 2" drain pipe goes up to the ceiling of the basement where it "Y's" into the 4" drain going to the first floor plumbing. This 4" drain exits the basement and into the septic system by gravity.

    The float switch cycles the effluent pump about every 6 gallons so it takes about 4 toilet flushes before it cycles.

    It's been in there for 4 1/2 years with no problems. I DO have a water sensor alarm sitting on the top of the sealed lid in case, for some reason the pump fails at least we'll know to stop using the basement bath very quickly.

    The basement bath is not our primary bathroom so we would not use it in the event of a power failure.

    I do not recall what kind of effluent pump we installed and I don't think I want to open that sucker up to look for you. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

    I was told that a "hung sewer" is one in which the city sewer or your septic tank is above the lowest point of your house's plumbing drain, requiring a pump up to that level.

  3. #13
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Pat:
    The salt water syphon is interesting. I got one of my own from work but couldn't describe it adequately and it is also a sore point as the golden haired boys couldn't figure it out. As proper repairs I requested were not done and the fixes I put in place were always removed soon as I got off shift I just let it ride. The cooling towers had some very wildly fluxuateing chemical readings on my days off and a commitee to look into it was even formed.

    The tee is what I'd do. I'd also pump into the first chamber of the upper septic tank.

    Sure wish payday was on Friday.

    Egon

  4. #14
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Pete:
    Seeing as a plumber was involved the system had to be reported as per the fellows licence. No plumber, no report, no inspector.

    Egon

  5. #15
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Hey Wild Bill, what does the V stand for? Just kidding! Sounds like you have a good straight forward system. As I have a guest bedroom in the walkout basement (the upstairs guest bedrooms are not safe rooms) I would like to have more reserve capacity in case of power outages. My builder suggested a smaller but standard septic tank downhill a bit from the walkout to provide good reserve capacity and to only have to pump liquids (cheaper and a bit more reliable) I imagine in years to come I will get a twofer at pumpout time. Any reason I sohouldn't install a pumpout pipe with plug above surface? Wouldn't have to dig down to lid and the pipe could be disguised/hidden.

    Patrick
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  6. #16
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Egon, You are lucky the committee didn't decide that since the problem only occurred on your days off to not give you any days off---PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

    I know I am sounding, perhaps, uncharacteristically timid BUT I don't want to pump into the first chamber of the upper tank as I am afraid it will stir it up too much and force solids and or floating scum into the next chamber. That is one of my main concerns in pumping. I am concerned that the stiring action will cause sollids to go where no solids are supposed to go and ultimately plug the leach field. That is why I wanted to consider a third chamber for lower tank and pumping that to the leach field.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  7. #17
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Pat:
    As you well know committee's do not make decisions, they only recomend another branch off committtee to report to the first one and on and on it goes.

    I'd stayed there 24 hours a day as overtime pay is real good pay. There were two times I turned down overtime in 25 years.

    Smaller pump volume may also alleviate your fears. Two or three people on a setic system should not overstress it. Exspecially as you have probably larger than required septic tanks to began with.

    Egon

  8. #18
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Egon, The smaller pump is a darned good idea, cheaper to buy, easier to start with a small generator supplying the power, and it helps with one of my (repeatedly mentioned) concerns of stiring stuff up and getting solids and scum into the leach field.

    Thanks for mentioning that. I'd like to think I would have thought of that before a pump was purchased and installed but maybe not.

    About your previous offer (declined) to introduce me to winter... We got an inch of snow yesterday but it is 90% gone now. It is possible we will get more before spring sets in.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  9. #19
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    Pat:

    Just another though. If you install a second septic or holding tank downstream of the bottom tank why not relocate it to downstream of the top tank as this is the one that will see the most service.

    Pump to big install a restrictor plate to reduce output. Shouldn't hurt a rotary or sludge type pump. A discharge bypass back to tank could also be used but would create turbulence in the tank.

    Got about 10 inches of nice snow last night.

    Egon

  10. #20
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    Re: ...and payday is on Friday.

    I just want to offer some advice about the pump if you go this route...

    We replaced our leach field and ended up with a septic tank flowing to a 500 gallon pump tank and then up to the field. The contractor installed a 1 hp sump pump. Unfortunately, I didn't know enough to check it out. It failed the first winter, when the ground froze 3.5 feet deep. It was fun watching him trying to break thru that with the excavator to find the frozen pipe.

    Anyway, a friend of mine is a pump expert. He lined me up on a 2.5 inch sewage pump (will pump a 2.5" rock) as the replacement. It wasn't cheap, but it has been flawless for 13 years.
    Spend the money on the right pump. It is worth it! [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

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