Pete (Boondox) I need your help

Pete,

I know you work with abused dogs and such and need some help with one. One of our friends from Texas works with stray, abused, abandoned, austrailian cattle dogs or heelers. She stopped by yesterday and had a dog that she had picked up here and wanted to know if we would take it in for her. I told her we would thinking everything would be ok.

The problem is the dog is extremely scared of people. When you open the door she takes off running and we have to go chase her to get her back. The girls have been playing with her and if they do the wrong thing she trys to bite them. Tonight we had her in the downstairs with us and my oldest went to give her a hug and she lunged at her and tryed to bite her. She also won't listen, won't come to you etc.

I'd like to help this dog but I'm not sure where to start with her. We've never abused our dogs and I've never had to deal with an abused one. I have alot of experience training dogs for cattle and obedience but again not sure how to handle an abused one. According to Lisa the dog was beat by the last owner and you can tell. If you scold her at all she drops her head and tail between her legs and then the running off I told you about.

The biting scares me and I'd like to help this dog but I sure don't want my daughters to get hurt. Any help would be appreciated. You can email me if you want or answer here. Thanks in advance Pete. mesasage@machlink.com

[rabbitrae90]

This is a thing that takes a long time. Just give her time and once she sees you or any of your family members wont hurt her she will trust you. About the bitting thing I think that the girls should stay away for the time being. Try it, It usally always works [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]
rabbitrae90

[Boondox]

Richard -- I'll have to ponder this one with my wife before responding intelligently. The long and short of it is this dog has never had any valid reason to come to a person before, and that's a hard lesson to unlearn. The way we deal with dogs that were abused that badly is...we don't.

I know that sounds odd coming from a rescue, but the last thing in the world a badly abused dog wants to deal with is a person. So we ignore them. We let our core pack of four goldens do the hard work. We shower our own dogs with love and praise. We let the newcomer see that nothing bad ever happens to the other dogs. We talk softly and never express the frustration that crops up when you have to go somewhere and the darned critter won't come back into the house. We provide plenty of food, treats and fresh water. We never approach the dog; we let it do the approaching. And when near an abused dog we never adopt postures associated with dominance like leaning over it, hugging it, staring at it.

And eventually, there comes a timid nudge at the elbow, or a shy chin on the knee, or maybe it just stops retreating as we walk past. That's the beginning of trust. And that's where the human work comes in. I know it's unorthodox, but it works. And without our core pack of devoted dogs I have no doubt we would not be as effective.

Let me talk this one over with the Wife. I'll follow up privately.

Pete

[Boondox]

Advice from wife:

Unfortunately, unless you have an absolutely secured area, fence that is rock solid ‘letting her out’ is going to be a real challenge. Usually with dogs like this you let them out and they GO. Not only do they go, they go to ground, which is to say they will hole up somewhere and, literally, starve to death before they’ll come out. They are that terrified. If you don’t have a securely fenced space you can put her in, I would use a long line attached to both a collar, and a harness in this case. Let he “go out” on the line, but keep the thing firmly in your gloved hands. When she hits the end, be braced for it, but don’t try to reel her back in. Just let her hit the end until she realizes that IS the end. And learns to do her business at the end. You will have to reel her in to get her to the house, but I wouldn’t try to get her to come to me. I would walk slowly forward on the line, dropping the excess behind you to drag (the coil will look frightening) and when I get within a reasonable, “walk the dog” range, take her into the house. You might want to use a quick release, so you can pop her on and off the thing without struggling to attach the line.

Once in the house… new rules. The girls may roll toys on the ground, no overhand throws. The girls must be standing upright when they play with the dog. The girls must not, ever, emit that high pitched feminine shriek we know they all do. The girls must learn to move quietly and smoothly. No jumpy, jerky, motions. And NEVER allow the girls to reach for the dog when it is under something or in a corner. NO mouth games (tug, for example, or waving something in front of the dog for it to snatch). The rules should be “let the dog come to you.” They can try coaxing the dog (probably not with food at this point) but they should remain nailed in their chair as they try it. The voice should be calm, not wheedling or high pitched. And please try not to use the word “come” which you may want to make a command later on. Try “hello Taffy… do you want to say Hello?” with a hand outstretched. Chances are, Taffy won’t want to say hello. But… someday… she may come over tentatively to see if she gets bopped for it. The secret is to be calm, matter of fact, and not to chase her unless it is an emergency.

I must say, from a kid perspective, this doesn’t sound like fun. It could well be the dog has been abused, but if you don’t know the history of the dog it could also be that the dog learned to control its universe by snapping. You don’t know which came first, the snap or the slap… but either way, I’d like to have a clearer picture of “trying to bite.” Generally, a dog doesn’t have to “try” unless your kids are faster than greased lightning. Generally, if they want to bite, they’re perfectly capable of doing damage.

So if the “biting” happens when the dog gets wound up, I would not allow the dog to get wound up, period. I would make sure that dog has lots of exercise. And if it has any predisposition toward doing what it was bred to do, I would get it out in the field, pronto. It may be that this particular dog will bond to the animals it is working with, learn to obey commands, but never be a “pet.” It may also be, and I think as a responsible parent and dog owner you’re already aware of this, it may also be that the dog can’t be saved. Just make that decision before one of the girls gets hurt if they are too young to understand the new ground rules around the dog.

I appreciate what this Rescue was trying to do, but I tend to agree with my husband, that an abused dog does best in a secure area with a pack. Secure, so it can go in and out without having to be handled, in a pack so it can re-learn structure and social order from the pack… and observe the pack interacting with humans. Perhaps if the Rescue is overwhelmed you could offer to foster another dog for them, freeing up a more appropriate home to deal with this particular dog?

Tamara

Pete and Tamara,

Thank you for your excellent advice. It certainly gives us somewhere to start. The dog was beaten. That's why it was taken from the original owners. The neighbor observed it several times. The girls will certainly follow any rules to help the dog. We train alot of animals and they are very good with the rules and they respect the animal as well.

We have another heeler and border collie and I wasn't going to turn her in with them because I didn't want her traumatized anymore but the advice certainly makes sense. Our other two dogs are exteremely gentle and loving.

Thanks again for your help. I'll let you know how it works out.

Richard

[RichZ]

Richard, you're doing a great thing taking this dog in!!! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Good luck and keep us posted! If anyone can help this dog, I know you can!!!

[Inspector507]

I have no where near the experience that Boondox may have, but the last addition to our family was rescued from a shelter. You could tell he had been abused when we took him out of the cage. He cowered a lot when we came near. But as we let him adjust to being out of the cage, he rolled over on his back and let me rub his belly. I know then that he was "mine".
After getting him home, anytime I walked in a room, he would run to a corner. I would immediatly go get him a treat and lay it down by him and walk away. It took a few times but he started to wag his tail when he saw the treat. Then he was able to take it from my hands without any coaxing.
Now, he's my best bud. I never get to go outside alone [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Unless it's to get on the tractor. He has to stay inside or chained while I'm on it.
The thing I can't understand is why was this 4 month old puppy abused?? He was house broken, has never bitten. Sure he had his moments chewing, but he's a pup AND part Golden. They'll do that. I think the good one was when I found my Lazy Boy in the kitchen with the arm chewed off it while I was at work.
He's almost 2 now, and I'd not take a million bucks to try to replace him.

I guess what I'm getting at is.......rehab is possible. It takes time and patience.

Jerry

[TimSullivan]

You have received wonderful advice from Boondox.

I would add that I would never place a fear bitter in a household that has young kids. The dog will react to them just doing things that are natural to the children. Then you have to take into the equation that your children will have friends visit. These visitors may not understand the rules and cause a problem with the dog.

I have worked with dogs for forty-five years and the fear bitters are the hardest to work with. I have a potential fear bitter now that is wonderful with people and children of all ages but if she is startled she will snap. She has come a long way but I always make sure she is comfortable with the situation and watch for the signs that she is getting nervous. It never really goes away. If the dog is fearful then she will snap or bite while a confident dog will just remove itself from the situation.

Just be very careful and always control the environment surrounding the dog.

[Boondox]

Jerry -- Thanks for a very touching story! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Regarding your comment asking why a 4 month old pup would be beaten...we see that a LOT with goldens. Usually the person gets a golden retriever pup because they remember someone else's sedate, mellow older golden. But a pup is a pup. They're active, inquisitive. Heck, they're children! The person expecting a dog that lays around all day gets frustrated with this hyperactive creature. Then the beating starts.

It's a credit to the breed that most can learn to love again after some of the brutality they experience.

Pete

[Boondox]

Tim -- You said a mouthful! Of all the dogs I hesitate to deal with, fear biters take the prize. I'm never sure how they'll react. But they can be turned. Molson, my Alpha male and the fellow in my sig file, was a fear biter. No more, but he is fiercely protective of me!

Richard -- Be careful, old friend.

Pete