Encroachment - survey, fence, or.....?

[bigbukhntr]

anytime you buy a piece of property, always get a new survey...it will show all easements and actual property lines....it will show fences, utility easements and whatnot.....how do u know where your property line actually ends without a legal survey?....the sellers may just be guessing at where their property line starts! we just bought 16 acres in texas, paid $400 to have it surveyed....started clearing the fence line on the east side, the old lady neighbor comes running out " what are you doing to my fence?". I told her that since it was my fence and on my property, i was gonna clear it from brush and take down the barb wire and put up field fencing.....she raised all sorts of a fuss and insisted that it was her fence! Seems the folks who sold her the land told her the fence was on her property instead of mine! She said that the brush was the only thing holding up the fence, and the only thing holding in the horses she was boarding.....she started ranting about how her son is a lawyer and she was gonna call him and have me stopped.....i told her that i was going to take down the fence one section at a time so it wouldnt inconvience her horse boarders, but if she wanted to get her son involved and take this to court, then the day after court when if i was proven right, i was gonna have my dozer out there and would take out the whole fence line, the heck with her horses.......i showed her son the recent survey, he talked to his mom, and we have been friendly neighbors every since....and i am still convinced that she actually thought that her properety went back about 20 feet further than it actually does!.....too bad her son didnt live here when she bought the property a few years back!

[herbenus]

I am having trouble with a neighbor and fence - but that's a different story. But I was told that in Texas it's against the law to remove a fence without permission of landowner on opposite side, encroachment or not. I'm not sure if this is true or not. I tried to research and found something about having to give owner 6 months written notice. I think there may be some old rural laws that make sense because of livestock issues. I don't know if they are still around and I don't know if they apply to non-rural settings. But something to maybe look into when tearing down a fence.

[Bird]

I suspect the following section is what you're talking about.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
SUBCHAPTER F. REMOVAL OF ADJOINING FENCES



§ 143.121. Prohibition



Except as provided by this subchapter or by mutual consent of the parties, a person may not remove a fence that is:



(1) a separating or dividing fence in which the person is a joint owner; or



(2) attached to a fence owned or controlled by another person.



Acts 1981, 67th Leg., p. 1351, ch. 388, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1981.



§ 143.122. Removal of Fence by Owner



A person who owns an interest in a fence attached to a fence owned in whole or in part by another person is entitled to withdraw his or her fence from the other fence after giving six months' notice of the intended separation. The notice must be in writing and given to the owner of the attached fence or to that person's agent, attorney, or lessee.



Acts 1981, 67th Leg., p. 1351, ch. 388, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1981.



§ 143.123. Requiring Removal of Fence by Another Person



A person who is the owner of a fence that is wholly on that person's land may require the owner of an attached fence to disconnect and withdraw the attached fence by giving six months' notice of the required disconnection. The notice must be in writing and given to the owner of the attached fence or that person's agent, attorney, or lessee.



Acts 1981, 67th Leg., p. 1351, ch. 388, § 1, eff. Sept. 1, 1981.



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[herbenus]

Yep that's it. But not sure when it applies. I think if I had livestock and the neighbor took down the fence that was wholely on his property and my livestock got out getting injured or causing damage - that he would be liable for some damage if he didn't warn me first. But I don't have livestock so it's not the case. But what about him taking down the fence and the opposite happens: people or animals crossing his land onto mine and causing damage. I think he would be liable here also. But I'm no lawyer and there hasn't been a problem yet. Other then he's po'd me somewhat and now said I could put a fence up (when we already had one!). Well that's one reason why I moved to country - to get away from neighbors...

[Gary_in_Indiana]

I'm very confused as to why you're buying property without a survey. How in the world do you know what you're buying?

I would absolutely NOT close on the property until I had a survey in hand. Around here, surveys are required by purchase agreements and are a seller expense paid out of closing proceeds.

Regardless of that, if your purchase agreement doesn't provide for that I think you should still have one done BEFORE closing. You might be surprised what you are and aren't buying.

[MarkV]

I have a couple of related questions some of you may have answers to.

Are there any ballpark rules for figuring roughly what it will cost to survey a tract of land? A per acre cost? More for wooded land? Also when rural property is surveyed the corners are normally staked. When you want the line marked at closer intervals to facilitate fencing I would assume there would be additional charges. Any guidelines as to what to expect?

I once read someone recommending that you should install fencing 6-12" inside the property line so there is no question of joint ownership of the fence. What are your opinions on placing field fencing?

Thanks
MarkV

[bigbukhntr]

when our property was surveyed, they put a iron rebar in the middle of the roadway (since we have a 60 ft easement...30' on my side of road, 30' on neighbor across the street)...they drilled into the street and put 1/2" rebar with pink flag and that was their starting point...everything comes off this stake....they then went down the street so far ....so many degrees latitude and so much for the curves and such....they put a rebar in the street every 500 feet or so i would know where the middle of road is (for my fence).....they put another rebar at he other corner of the properety.....and kept doing this until they had all 4 corners marked.....they had to clear out brush and such on the one corner in order to get to the property line there, but they just got weed wackers out and cut away...only enough to get in there and drive a rebar....all the rebars are flagged with bright pink construction ribbon and are very easy to locate...and very easy for your neighbors to see also..so there shouldnt be any discrepency over who owns what after these guys leave....after a couple of days, you will get a map of property with all dimensions and boundaries, all legal easements / utility easements and mine showed all existing fence lines which were on property at time of survey [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

i paid 400 bucks for the survey and wouldnt even consider buying property without one....what if there are easements the owner isnt telling you about....we have a 120' waterline easement and electric easement across the back side of our property....the owner never mentioned that to us....no big deal since its on the very edge of the properety, but it means we cant build any permanent structures back there....it was a reason for us to offer less $ for the property though, since we couldnt build a house back there if we ever wanted to sell out land by the acre.... the owner knocked off about 40k for that acre not being buildable upon.....we can put a barn or something up there, but if they ever decide to run a water line or electric line down there, they have the right to tear down whatever we build.....they also paid for our gate back there when we had the fence put in.....so they would have access to property when they needed it....

I have two plots of land, one is 13 acres &amp; the other is 10 acres, that I purchased at different times. The surveys cost me between $450 &amp; $500 for each. I told them to flag it for fencing when they surveyed. As I remember, they put a flag in every 50 feet on straight lines and a flag every time it turned.

I put my fence on the property line on two sides and tied into existing fences on the other two sides that were already fenced. Paid my neighbors 1/2 of the approximate cost of fencing the sides I tied into.

[jtd]

Mark, Surveyor costs can vary significantly so ask your neighbors/contacts for recommendations. The last one I used is an older gentleman. He brought along two helpers for clearing a line of site for fencing last year - marked the line about every 50 to 100 feet. Charged $450 for 10 hrs field work over two days. Previous surveyor recommended by my architect for a topographic plot of my house site prior to building cost $2,000 for 2 1/2 hrs field work. He did have to generate the topo plot but this can be essentially automated with the new instruments downloading directly into a computer program. All of the surveryors locally are using satelite verification for the registered corner markers. In Palo Alto, CA, about a dozen years ago I paid $1,000 for a simple verification of a lot when I bought it.

[Autotech]

There are obviously some signifigant differences in how things are done in different parts of the country.

There are two reasons a complete survey is not being done prior to settlement - First, due to disclosure laws here in PA the seller is obligated to disclose all information regarding easements, leases, leins, etc. Failure to do so is reason to void the sale, even after closing, and is an actionable offence (in other words we could void the sale, void the sale and be compensated, keep the property and be compensated, etc). Also, prior to closing, the title company is obligated to research for issues such as these. My parents went through this with a home they bought a few years back and the title company ended up paying the costs involved in making the property legally what they had confirmed it was. Yes its a huge PITA, but there are recourses.
Second is cost. If I could get this property surveyed for $500 I'd do it tomorrow, but I have been quoted anywhere between $4000-$6000 and up. I guess everything isn't bigger in Texas!!! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
This property is located in a fairly residential area (the remains of a once grand farming operation) where the property lines are pretty much straight lines. I have seen a complete plot plan from when the subdivision in question was built, and am hopeful that the owner will pass it, or a copy, on to me. I have asked for it, so we'll see. If I do get this plot plan, I'm hoping that it, along with some careful searching for permanent survey posts that should be present, and some nice conversation, will be all I need to get the offending neighbors to comply. Otherwise I'll have to pony up for at least a partial survey...

Thanks for all the input folks!

Gregg