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Thread: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

  1. #21
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    >> If you guys were going to buy a place, what non-obvious but critical stuff would you attend to?

    Here's a long winded response to your question. Much of it is probably obvious to you, but hopefully there'll be a few worthwhile nuggets.

    The first thing I looked at was location:
    - Is the work commute doable on a day in day out basis in all seasons given that I will have chores to do at home in the morning and evening. Also, I wanted time to spend with family. In my case this meant a drive of less than 20 minutes each way.

    - Are you close enough to family & friends. An individual decision, but for me this ending up meaning less than an hour from my in-laws.

    - If you plan eventual roadside sales is there enough traffic on the road to make this realistic?

    - Development trends - Are the town and county encouraging development in your area? If their dreams come true, what will the area look like in 20 years. Check their master plan, if they have one, and see what the planned path of development is. Also consider unplanned development. As an example, my town doesn't have a real master plan, but on a piecemeal, ad hoc basis, every road which has city water is seeing its frontage sold off and manufactured housing erected on ~1 acre lots.

    - Taxes and tax trends. Not necessarily a deal breaker, but understand what all of the taxes are - county, town, school, any other special assessments - fire, library, etc.... Don't just look at the current tax bill. Check what your taxes will be. Often the current bill can be based on an older assessment which will be updated when you purchase, or may have exemptions or discounts due to the current owner's age, income or the place's farming status. Understand what the tax trends are also. My town boasts that it works hard to minimize tax rate increases. Unfortunately, they do stealth tax increases by frequently increasing the assessed value of town properties.

    Others:
    - Water, is it good? Do you have enough for irrigation? Any market gardening enterprise will require some irrigation. I think the rule of thumb is 15,000 gallons/acre/inch of water.

    - How much land do you really need? 40 acres sounds nice, but its a lot to take care of and pay taxes on. I looked at places ranging from 3 to 85 acres and ended up with just over 7. For me, 7 is enough for my tasting orchard, small fruits and market garden. Also, with the 7 acre plot, I ended up with a piece of real good ground. All of it is considered either "Prime" or of "Statewide Importance". I live in an agricultural area and the larger plots which were for sale with a house, typically had low quality agricultural land.

    - Condition and size of buildings. Try to avoid getting stuck with bigger buildings than you will need or a lot of buildings which are best renovated with a bulldozer.

    - Check if there are abandoned underground gas/diesel tanks. You may also want to do a soil test in the area of any tanks to ensure you don't have a contamination problem. The same also goes for the area where pesticides were stored and mixed. Many people's handling practices were casual at best and contamination may be an issue.

    Finally, Don't rush out and buy equipment. Used is nice, but antique can be a real PITA unless you enjoy spending as much time underneath the equipment as on it. Buy it with cash and make sure it's money that you don't need elsewhere. I've bought the equipment I need for my small market garden/berry patch/orchard over the past three years. With the exception of a rototiller and a few shovels and rakes, I bought all of it used, mostly at auction and have found that for the pieces I don't end up using, that on average I can sell for close to what I paid.

  2. #22
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    <font color="blue"> Although you say you want to be organic, you may very well have to comply with specific laws in your area regarding application of materials (even "natural" fertilizers for example.) Pesticides/herbicides often require training/certification.
    </font color>

    There are both federal and state regulations regarding what can and cannot be called organic. Around here, the requirements are quite stringent - one of my neighbors grows organic mandarin oranges. One of the biggies is that you cannot use *any* "non-organic" substance on your property - that means that you can't use Roundup along your fence lines and just say that you keep it away from your crops. He's real paranoid because you're also required to not have used any prohibited substance for three years - meaning that if he loses his certification he can't get it back for at least three years.

    What a lot of folks try is to call themselves "Earth friendly", but with more and more big corporations becoming certified organic that may not be good enough for the small guy.

    <font color="blue">
    I mentioned property taxes, but then there's income tax as well. The IRS is very picky about "hobby farming" vs. "real" production. Basically, if you choose to try and take advantage of any tax breaks allowed a real farmer/rancher, be VERY careful! You are really opening yourself up to some potential problems.
    </font color>

    Very true! The IRS does not appreciate "hobby" farmers trying to get tax breaks. You've got several requirements - you have to make money two years out of five. You generally can't have a "real" job - to prove that it is a full time endevor it needs to be, well, a full time endevor (yes, there are ways around this, but this is a general rule of thumb that seems to make sense). Someone else mentioned it - make sure you get an accountant that understands the tax laws.


  3. #23
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    Andy, its a good thing I didn't set a limit of 20 minutes commute from my property. From my office I can go about 5 miles in 20 minutes, and I'm still in the middle of Dallas. But in an hour or so I'm 56 miles out, once I get rolling on the interstate.

    Chris - Yes, making money 2 out of 5 years is a good rule of thumb, but not a firm requirement. Also, there is no rule that requires you to be full time.
    Alan L. - Texas
    North of Mustang
    South of Bugtussle
    On the Banks of Buck Creek

  4. #24
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    If you can prove your making money off the land FIGHT to get an agricultural exempt tax status. or whatever for MN. it will cut your taxes about 80% here in MI so probably something simular in MN. It will not come easy but it's worth it. For me it was aprox 6500$ per year to 650$ Major difference on the bottom line and all I grow is hay.


    mikell

  5. #25
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    <font color="blue"> Chris - Yes, making money 2 out of 5 years is a good rule of thumb, but not a firm requirement. Also, there is no rule that requires you to be full time. </font color>

    Proving once again that I don't understand the tax laws [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]. Hopefully my accountant is better than I am [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]...

    Sorry for the incorrect info [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img].

  6. #26
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    HMMMM, Sorry to comment so late. I basically disagree with the concept of maximum return on each sq ft of farmed land. You have the lalnd. You can't turn off taxes, insurance , etc. There are fixed costs of ownership. What you want to maximize is profit not just profit margin (not the same) Your chief investment may well be your time and energy, they are limited resources.

    You want to get the greatest cash return on the least investment of your personal time and energy. Then you can decide how much of your time and energy to invest. If you invest all of your available time and energy and don't make a suitable profit there is nothing you can do to to make more $ since you can't invent more hours in a day. You would have to change your paradigm, choose a different process and invest your time and energy differently.

    There are just a heck of a lot of folks who keep their city jobs to be able to subsidize their marginal (or worse) agricultural efforts. Often their annual income, lifestyle, and disposable $ situation would be improved if they quit fooling themselves and stopped farming.

    Specialty crops are the best bet for small acreages. Check current prices before going off half cocked to raise echinacea, or any herbal stuff. Prices have falllen dramatically even in the face of rising consumption due to increased planting. My neighbors used to dig and dry wild echinacea and made good $ doing it but then some folks started culltivating it and the price dropped from over 50/lb to less than 6. They don't bother anymore. GET CURRENT INFO.

    I had a friend who leased 2500 acres, mostly to place it under cultivation and grow Jeruselem (sp?) Artichokes (tuberous). He did plant some acres of artichokes but along the way his seed suppliers offered him cash advanes of $5000/acre to setup and grow cucumbers for them. They gave a guaranteed "in the field" per lug price in advance. They also encouraged him to plant pearl onions as a high dollar crop. the lesson to be learned here is don't decide in a vacuum what makes sense to grow.

    Check with green grocer wholesalers and with buyers in the herbal trade to see what the prices are for various candidate crops and then assess your potential as regards climate, land, any required equipment and so forth to see where the intersection of crop success lies with respect to marketabillity.

    It does no good to successfully grow tons of something that you can't sell at a profit, or haven't the equipment to harvest, or the drying sheds to prepare for sale or whatever. Maybe you'll find something that you can grow that will sell for enough to make you a success. Don't forget to assess the liklihood of crop failure due to weather, insects, or whatever.

    You don't want to be the sunburned guy parked beside the road with a pickup full of watermellons going bad in spite of a lower price than the supermarket.

    Given your "ecological sensitivity" you will probably not use chemicals so start scouting for fertilizer sources (egg ranches etc) and get a handle on natural pest control. Hopefully you are not toooooooo sensitive to the idea of actually killing a critter. If I hadn't thinned out my friends ground squirrel population (and a few rabbits) he would have lost his pearl onion crop. If your choice is to never kill a living creature then be prepared to spend a lot of $ and time on other preventative measures or be doomed to certain failure.

    Synoptic rehash: Don't pick something to grow and then try to figure out how to be profitable. Lay out a decision matrix and populate the cells with facts relating to both the demand side (marketability and prices of various candidate crops) and the supply side (what you can grow with your land, time, energy, $ and other resources) Then try to select a crop or crops at or near the maximum return available. Manage risk! A fantastic return that is unlikely to come to fruition is not good. Consider diversification to ameliorate the downside.

    Good luck,

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  7. #27

    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    Pat, I'm tracking right with you.

    And I'll kill a varmint if it's eating my crops. One of the things on my shopping list is a new shotgun. BoomBoom.

    I was down in Harmony, Minnesota, walking around and watching the Amish farm. If anybody knows how to farm small and sustainably with minimal inputs, they do. Anyway, I was going past a farm where I've many times watched them haying or plowing or whatever with horse drawn equipment, and there in the field are 2 Amish kids in Black suits and hats, etc., and sporting a new .22 rifle. Guess they were after varmints or something tender for supper. I had to laugh. That .22 looked mighty well cared for, too. It didn't jibe with the stereotype, which is why I laughed.

    I love it when stereotypes fall apart. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

  8. #28
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    Withougt geting into religious philosophy, there is much to admire in and sometimes emulate in the Amish. Their basic approach with a little modern mechanization is a decent starting point. Assuming you don't have their manpower/acre ratio, you supplement with mechanization.

    Far be it from me to advise you to not buy a shotgun but... There are good reasons the Amish boys had a .22 and it was not a religious prohibition against a scatter gun. At much of a distance a shotgun is not very precise and my do as much damage as the critter was doing to your produce. I suggest you consider a .22 as well as a shotgun so yo aren't too "tool poor."

    Over-under .22-shotgun is not a bad choice. You only have to reach for the one gun and then decide which barrel to use. Don't know how rural you are but if the shooting noise is a political/social problem there is a 4-500$ cure. There are some very effective .22 supressors on the market. They are fully legal to buy and use. Registration with the BATF is $200. This lets you "blaze" away with a .22 that is quieter than a pellet gun. No one is disturbed by noise. Varmints aren't spooked so much so you get decent follow up shots. The supressor itself is serialized and treated like a firearm, registration wise. You can interchange it between or among as many different pistols and rifles as you feel inclined to modify to accept the threaded accessory. The ones I have seen use 1/2 inch threads and have a "thread protector" to screw on when the supressor is not affixed.

    To remain in "stealth" mode, you must shoot an ammo/weapon combination that gives subsonic performance. Regular .22 ammo in a short barrel auto loader like my Ruger 22/45 target pistol is subsonic. With a rifle you may have to buy the readily available subsonic ammo. Rounds with muzzle velocity exceeding about 1100 feet per second have a sharp crack sound due to the pressure wave from the faster than sound motion through the air. This is a major contributor to overall noise of a shot. The supressor only elliminates/reduces muzzle noise not the suopersonic effects of high speed rounds.

    The downside of slower rounds are less effect on target and greater bullet drop. Most varmints are effectively elliminated with a subsonic .22 hollow point so that isn't a big deal. You will be required to estimate range better to get good shot placement at varying ranges. You can test your gun/ammo combination from your typical shooting locations to various parts of your fields (withing your effective range) so you know in advance the drop to compensate for at a given location.

    Most of the forgoing is equally applicable to suppressed and non-suppressed shooting. If noise and safe backstop aren't issues, get a faster (flatter) shooting gun. But then we stray from our Amish minimalistic philosophy.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  9. #29
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    I think Pat's point is to remain flexible. Just because a crop is profitable this year, does not mean it will be profitable forever, or even next season. If profit is being made, competition will arise. At that point, if the competition causes the profit to drop too sharply, it may be time to grow something else.

    The Amish do indeed lead interesting, self sufficient lives. However, more and more are leaving farming in this area, or only doing it for their own familes. Instead they are running sawmills, bakeries, grocery stores, building windows, cabinets, etc. Even without power, water, phone bills, etc., they are finding it hard to make ends meet raising traditional crops.

    Steve

  10. #30
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    Re: Never farmed, want to farm, am buying. Advice?

    Here's an interesting article of one family's experience developing a produce business.

    http://www.newfarm.org/depts/beginni...nkillick.shtml


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