Help with Broderbund 3-D Home Architect Deluxe 3.0

[Pat]

Gary (Indiana), Most excellent reasons. I envy your penetrating analyses. Two dishwashers seems quite practical in light of your logic. Go ahead, sound like Andy Rooney, I like him and his analysis a lot. I confess, I have 3 large square Bellgian waffle makers (all alike, bought at same time) because you can't serve waffles to more than two people fron a single maker. They can't be "held" properly in a warming oven, a "cozy" lets them steam themselves, and so on. I usually only fire up two but with guests for breakfast, it takes three.

If I recall my history correctly (and someone here will correct me if I go astray, please) The kitchen "work triangle" layout, counter top heights, counter depths, shelf depths, and so forth were determined by a Government sponsored study (Rosevelt inspired?) The results of this study became "THE BIBLE" for kitchen designs and there are hundreds of thousands (more likely millions) of examples throughout the USA. As you note, Gary, the average size of (domestic bred from resident stock) Americans has increased in height over the intervening decades and the sizes and proportions are not neccessarily a good "average" fit anymore. If I notice a "pain in the back" at ONLY 6-2, then at 6-8 you must really need relief.

We too are going with 9 ft (actually 9 ft 1 1/8 inches from top of slab to rough ceiling) throughout basement and ground floor except in vaulted spaces. Upstairs headroom will vary and some clearances might not suit you well. Ceilings will mimic the 12:12 pitch roof ,at least aout near the periphery. The minimum wall height is planned to be 5-6 which will just clear the head of a 6-6 person standing with a shoulder against the wall. You'd have to stand a couple inches from the wall to clear your head.

Gary, I have no problem seeing your need for taller counter heights, I just didn't understand the 6 inch "waste space." Now I get it. It is just standard cabs, raised to your required counter height.

Excuse my concern for the waste space. I lived on a sailboat for 9 years and got used to the idea of trying to use all available space efficiently. My current house build has over 1,000 sqft of perfectly good upstairs space that I am unlikely to finish out. I might (just maybe) install a door to access about 1/2 of it. I have no idea how to keep my wife from filling it up storing useless stuff if it is accessible.

Given your average reach is greater than the "standard" of over half a century ago, will you be making your counter tops a bit wider (deeper?) than the average? All along one wall of my "U" shaped kitchen, except where the range is located, the counter tops will be 3 feet deep instead of 2. the extra foot will be taken up by appliance garages with rollup (tambor doors). My kitchen messes are larger than one foot in extent so the one foot left after having an appliance garage on a two foot counter was not sufficient. If I were as tall as you, I'd consider making the counters wider.

Are you going to "settle" for 6-8 doors? To avoid the expense of custom height doors, you could fir down standard doors a couple inches at the bottom and hide the extension under an aplique, a brass kick plate.

Thanks for the neat ideas re the dryers and dishwashers, I'll consider them carefully.

Patrick

[egon]

Pat:
Even some short people find kitchen countertops too low. Thirty oddd years ago when I built the kitchen cabinets and counters in our house the counter tops were several inches higher than standard.

Egon

[Gary_in_Indiana]

Pat,

First let me thank you for all of the kind words. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I hadn't considered making the countertops over the base cabinets deeper but I'm sure going to look into it. As the paln stands now, I would have one larger countertop with two others in the C-shaped kitchen of normal depth. An extra foot of depth on all counters would be great. Of course, as with all things in life, there is a trade off. My kitchen floor space would drop by a foot in each direction to compensate for the additional counter space. I'm not saying that's not a worthwhile trade. I'll just have to look at it a little more.

Since I'm going to go with 42" wall cabinets instead of the standard 36", I'm thinking a lot of what might normally go in an appliance garage on the counter I can put on the top shelf of those cabinets.

I have a little 'trick' for doors I'll be happy to share with you. A standard pre hung 6'-8" door gives you almost exactly that height of an opening. It'll be 1/4" off the floor and take that 1/4" back with the stop trim at the top of the frame. When I'm building something for me I make my rough opening an extra 1 1/2" taller and when I get ready to put my pre hung door in I take a 1" x 1 1/2" piece of wood and nail it to the bottom of either side of the rough opening. Then, when I install my pre hung door the frame sets on those little blocks.

I admit that looks rather tacky when the doors are installed. The good news is that I'm going to be having carpet installed over a pad and that hides my little shims. An added bonus is that when I go to re-install my doors after the carpet guys leave, I DON'T have to trim them to fit over the new carpet and I have the door opening height extra height without spending the extra money for custom doors. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Gary (Indiana), Even 6 inches extra countertop width makes a big difference and unless your crew is anatomically weird, just tall but with short arms, you will have no problem with an extra 6 inches or so. You can cantilever the top a few inches out over the face frame of the base units and not suffer much if you use full extension hardware on the drawers.

Au contraire, mon ami! Here is where I have to get hard line. Extra storage space in the top of a cabinet is at best A POOR SUBSTITUTE for appliance garages. Of course yo will put plenty of electrical outlets inside the appliiance garages. Some appliances can be operated inside the garage, some dragged out on the counter top a little way to be used. The tambor roll up door can be lowred gently on the cord and an appliance used right there and then just shoved back in place. Like the convenience you espouse with dual dishwashers and clothes dryers, appliance garages are also very convenient.

Take for example a bread maker: After it is used yo don't have to wind up the cord and lift it up to the top shelf, just shove it back and drop the garage door. Typically, you just wash the removable pan and replace it in the unit. Similarly, toasters get used many times between cleanings. They are a great candidate for garage space. Cuisinart, Mixers, and on and on are RIGHT THERE when you want them. If it is convenient, it gets used. If not so convenient it MIGHT get used. I intend to have at least two ovof my waffle makers on standby in their garage space.

While talking about multiple copies of applinances, I might mention that I will have at least two if not three microwave ovens in each kitchen. Countertop models, but semi-built in. They are very handy and cheap. I do not like built in models as they are overpriced, more failure prone, and don't work worth a darn as a range hood (I will never get one that is the hood.)

Thanks for the door trick. It is a poorly kept secret. My previous house had been retrofitted with a used door that was extended in height with a full width splice. I only discovered this when refinishing it (painted not stained.) I thought masking an extension with kick plates would be easy enough.

I may make my own entry door. Coustom doors get real pricey and I want a 42 inch door width and likely taller than 6-8 (probably 7 ft). That means I'll probably have to build the sidelights as well. I expect to be able to buy double glazed window "cartridges" to install in my own wood working project but I'll shop the custom market first to see what my budget is. Don't want to spend more and take longer doing it myself.

Patrick

[Gary_in_Indiana]

<font color="blue"> Custom doors get real pricey and I want a 42 inch door width and likely taller than 6-8 (probably 7 ft).</font color>

Since you want to go with a sidelight, anyhow, let me make a suggestion to you. I've seen entry doors with a sidelight which can be opened on the latch side of the door. That keeps you with a normal door width for normal traffic and still gives you the option of going probably 48" for moving things like furniture in or out. Personally, I'm going to go with at least the front entry door at least 7' if not 8' since it'll be at an area open up about 19' to the ceiling.

I like the comments on the advantages of the appliance garages and will reconsider those. As to extending the countertops beyond the base cabinets, I just don't see why I'd ever want to do that. If you were responding to my concerns about giving up floor space this won't solve anthing because I'm not going to be walking under the countertops so it makes more sense to bring the base cabinets out from the wall and have the cabinet face and countertop edge at normal proportions. Of course, now between my half foot beneath them and your half foot or foot behind them we're getting dangerously close to the whole set being an island here. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously, thought, there is a disadvantage to building the counter and/or base cabinets out six or twelve inches we've not pointed out here. As we move the counter edge out we lessen the height to which everyone can reach to get to the wall cabinets. Of course, we could solve that by moving those out from the wall, too, but then we're going to need to put legs underneath them. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

We don't suffer from 'gator arms' here. Especially not my son. At 6'-5" he's just now grown into his arms and legs. He wears a longer inseam and sleeve than I do and is notably shorter. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Gary (Indiana), I have seen the doors with an opening sidelight at Lowes. My wife and I thought they were pretty neat... B U T... my builder really doesn't like them in a big way. Of course, I can have them if I want but I have never found ANY of his advice to be less than quite appropriate.

About cantilevered countertops: A couple inches in counter width makes a difference. Just a few inches 2-3 doesn't really interfere with floor space. When you walk around, usually your feet are way below counter top height and unless you crawl around a lot you aren't likey to hit your head. With full extension glide hardware, deeper drawers would still be fully accessible and not being cursed with "gator arms" everyone could reach the back of the deeper shelves. In my particular instance I will be cantilevering standard depth wall cabs out a foot as well as mounting the base cabs out a foot from the wall but on the "other" side of that wall I'll use the space for pantry shelves. I will use stain grade studs (or cover with veneer) in that wall and it will not have any drywall. This will make a "pantry wall" with some 17 1/2 inch deep shelves (maybe some full extension drawers as well) and some shelves only 5 1/2 inches deep (will hold can goods and spices). The short shelves will be in the vertical zone between counter height and bottom of wall cabs, i.e. back side of the appliance garages. A three castor wheeled "library" step stool stored under the bottom shelf will make accessing the highest shelves easy. 5'7" wife x 9 ft ceilings, top shelf over 7 ft above floor.

The wall cabs are cantilevered to match the position of the base cabs which are out a foot from the wall to allow a foot for appliance garages without losing counter space. If I didn't cantiliver the wall cabs they would be hard to reach over the extended counter.

Actually, if yo only want to cantilever your wall cabs a few inches it is NO PROB! I will be cantilevering mine a full foot or so. The only accomodation I am making will be to make the supporting wall with 6 inch studs (not required but it will make me feel better). Sometimes you calculate everything and then go with your gut. I usually overengineer structure. If it were a real problem I could use steel for that wall, i.e. steel shapes instead of wooden studs. That would alow greater spacing too which would open up the pantry shelves nicely. Hmmmm...

Patrick

[GaryM]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I have seen the doors with an opening sidelight at Lowes. My wife and I thought they were pretty neat... B U T... my builder really doesn't like them in a big way. Of course, I can have them if I want but I have never found ANY of his advice to be less than quite appropriate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I spec'd one of these doors for my new place now under construction. Did your builder say why he didn't like them. I do know it makes a storm door difficult if not impossible. But as my door faces East, and most bad weather comes from the West, I'm not wanting a storm door anyway.

[Pat]

Gary, His major complaint is that he has NEVER seen double doors that sealed well enough to recommend in an exposed location AND they don't take storm doors easily.

Patrick

[GaryM]

I suspected that the storm door might be one of the reasons. And I don't care about that part. And it will fase East, so I'm not too concerned about sealing.

I think the abilty to have a wider opening when needed will be enough to offset the minuses.

Thanks for the input.

BTW Pat, you can see my house status at www.w0gom.net . The thumbnails link to larger images.

[Pat]

GaryM, I won't be using a traditional storm door at the front/main entry which gives rise to more concern regarding sealing problems of the double door. I do like the door with opening sidelight but haven't quite felt strongly enough to ignore my builders advice which has been so very good so far except for the following...

I have been considering making a portion of my front porch an air lock, i.e. enclosing the portion surrounding the entry with storm doors on three sides. Coming to the main entry, a person would first open a glass (storm) door (or pair hung like French doors) and get in out of the weather. Once in this anteroom you could proceed to the entry door or turn left or right to go through another storm door to the east or west part of the front porch. As we do not anticipate the front porch being much more than an architectural "feature" essentially vestigal, except as a display device for a few hanging plants and planters and object d'art, this airlock arrangement will not be a particular hassle.

Given the ameliorating effects on wind, rain, snow, dust, etc. provided by an airlock entry, we may get real adventurous and go for one of the double doors that you like. My personal objection is that I couldn't find any taller than 6-8 and with an airlock entry just a plain single large door (42 inch wide) 7 or 8 ft tall, will not hemorage conditioned air and be an an energy hog.

Jury is still out. If I have to build a custom door myself, then I may just build one 7-8 ft tall with transom light, 42 inches wide in the main door and sidelights (one opening as you like). The glass storm doors mounted French door style do not need to lock, just latch for wind reasons. This airlock entry is on the North side of the house under a porch roof and will not experience significant solar gain.

Am I the only one around that realy likes airlock entryways? Any others out there prefer them?

Patrick