Long Post for Spare Water Tank Questions

[TimSullivan]

<font color="blue"> I told the well guy that I either want half cost credit for the pump or I want the pump back. It's not even a year old. The problem is that we can't re-use it because it won't go down further past the part of the casing that is drawn in, so we have to go with the 3 in pump. </font color>

You could use that old pump in your tank and save the cost of a new one. That is what I use in our tank.

[CJDave]

Reading through threads like this is sort of difficut for me since I spent twenty-plus years in the pump business, with both agricultural and domestic water customers. Anyone who puts in a sub in a plastic well without a simple over-center loss of water switch is REALLY an amateur. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] Water well pumping is such a common practice that I thought all of the lesson had been learned....over and over....but I guess not. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I have always liked the idea of a two-pump well/cistern system, and it isn't because I could sell more stuff, it was because it is so practical for situations where the underground water supply might be "iffy". What we often did was install a 1000....or bigger....gallon tank above ground, and fed THAT from the well pump using a DOLE FLOW CONTROL valve in the discharge so the well pump could only draw a specific amount of GPM, which matched the well output. We had a float switch to cycle the tank-filling well pump IN SERIES with either electrodes sensing the water level, or an over-center cut-off pressure switch in case the water level dropped below pump level. THEN we used a shallow well jet pump as a tank booster and THAT fed to the bladder tank which formed the hydropneumatic system. I would not use a sub for a tank pump because if you don't keep at least a minimum head on the bowls there is a chance that upthrust will destroy the pump. It just isn't the pump for that job. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] We have even set up a group of mountain cabins on a gravity feed system where the storage tank was slightly higher than the cabins and water could gravity flow to each one, and THEN be picked up by an in-house booster/tank combo to give household pressure. That solved the problem of the extremely low yield of mountain wells. The water was there, it just flowed very slowly so the well pump ran almost continuously at very low flow. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Hank]

The standard installation here is a 2550 gal underground fiberglass tank, that is filled from the well. The 118 gal pressure tank draws from the underground tank with a second pump, and if necessary, additional pressure tanks are added.

Our well is a three-way share, which explains the larger tank setup. The total cost of this system, less drilling, was $10,000, with about a third of that going for the 2550 gal fiberglass tank.

[chevdog]

Thanks to both of you for your input. Dave, I have to say that in this case the truth hurts and unfortunately this is going to be one of those hard knock lessons. Wish that I had known all about wells when it was installed, but just have to learn this time around.
Point taken about the over center switch - we will make sure to find out what's being installed this time around.
[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

That's a nice setup, Hank.....a Cadillac installation. I just LOVE the two-pump system! [img]/forums/images/icons/blush.gif[/img] I had a customer whose water source was a tiny spring about 600 feet lower than his cabin. He sent for the plans from the US Govm't that showed him how to "box" the spring. We found some EXTREMELY heavy wall PVC pipe for him which he installed by diving off the mountain with a Caterpillar-mounted single shank ripper and pulling the pipe in with a special attachment. Then we furnished a three-piston high pressure pump which was started and stopped by a tricky radio device triggered by the storage tank float switch. The piston pump pushes the water up the hill and past the cabin on up to the tank. Then the household water pressure is by gravity from the tank outlets. He has two outlets on the tank; the "duty" outlet is a few feet off the bottom, and "reserve" is at or near the bottom. If he runs out of water, he has a few feet in reserve to get by till he drives down to the spring to see what the problem is. Luckily, the spring was near a roadway and power was available. When we built the electrical panel we built in some redundancy just for good measure so a burned coil wouldn't put him out of water for days. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[chevdog]

Our well was finally put back into service yesterday, but now I seem to have more questions than ever [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

The original pump used a Franklin control box mounted at the top of the well shaft. When I got home yesterday, the well was working fine, but no control box [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] The power leads go to the pressure switch, then from the switch disappear down into the well.

I know that all 3 wire pumps need a control box and it looks like this is a 2 wire pump (plus a ground wire). If I remember right though, the original pump was also a 2 wire, but obviously used the control box. I can't help but think that regardless of what the pump is, having those start/run capacitors in the box sure can't hurt.

So, now my original pump AND control box are gone. I have a functioning well system, but not a good feeling about the current installation. Why was the control box removed?

I'm also questioning the final cost, but have not had any answers yet to my asking about getting credit or my original pump back. I also said that I did not think I was responsible for anything other than the cost of lowering the pump another 60 ft, which is how this whole fiasco got started. I have not seen a bill yet, either, though.

I almost did not want to post anything since I feel like a such a dumb#$$ at this point, but what the heck, it may save somebody else some grief on their well drilling and setup.

Regardless, I'm going ahead with the storage tank and shallow well jet pump installation. I also found a source for the Dole flow control valve and finally understand how the system works. I'm thinking that part of the problem may have been that the original 20 gpm pump was overpumping the well and not allowing it to recover? Another question I've got to the well company is to also find out what the gpm output capacity of the well itself is.

Thanks again for your help.
Older but only slightly wiser.

[GaryM]

A friend just had his pump replaced. He had a two wire, with the starting capacitor built in. The new pump has an external starting capacitor mounted in a box. The pump tech. hung the box with the capacitor just inside the casing. Not visible from outside.

Maybe yours is in the same place?

[chevdog]

Gary, I'll check on this. Thanks.

[Pat]

Is it better late than never or never than late?

Anyway here is another consideration as regards a really big tank in-line between the well and house:

There will be exponential mixing in the big tank. The water supply will not be FIFO (first in first out). Some water pumped into the tank may still be in the tank after several tankfulls have been consumed.

A illlustration/experiment: put a couple spoonfulls of milk in a glass. Put a couple galon pail or pan under the kitchen faucett or put the stopper in the drain. Place the the glass above the pail but under the faucett and turn on the water a bit. Let the water run untill the overflowing water from the glass doesn't have any apparrent milk left in it. Sure took a lot of water didn't it? This is a "standar" exponential decay situation.

So what has this to do with the BIG tank and why does it matter how long some water stays in it? The longer you store water in an environment where it is more subject to bacterial growth the less safe the water supply is. Also over time since the water in the tank will be warmer than that from the well it will lose disolved air and taste FLAT. If you blast the tank with bleach really well and have no living organisms left in it AND none are present in the well water then it might be safe but I'd be predjudiced against it.

Alternatively you can just store an emergency supply in a buried tank or system of tanks. Some folks use recycled plastic drums plumbed together for extra capacity. These can be mostly burried or left on the surface. The water is superchlorinated with bleach and then when used it is passed through an activated charcoal filter. You can use a small pressure pump to pump it into your potable water plumbing.

Down in Baja Calilfornia Mexico where we have some leased property with NO water or electrical utilities this is a common technique. My "next door" neighbor burried a 2400 gal tank and uses solar electric panels to charge batts to run his pump. Household bleach is fine for superchlorination and the activated charcoal filter takes out all the taste and odor just prior to consumption so there is no bacteria problems. Water can be stored safely quite a while that way. Instructions are on the label of some brands of bleach. Just remember yo don't want the concentration that you drink but a much stronger one for safe long term storage, but remember the filter to take it out.

Pat

[chevdog]

You must have been a fly on the wall Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] We were kicking this topic around yesterday while talking about what size tank would be adequate.
I hadn't considered the FIFO concept - my concern was that the water would taste flat and/or like plastic. The bacterial growth possibility is far more of a priority though. Glad you posted the info. We had gotten as far as deciding that we were going to need a charcoal filter at least plus the small pump for house/irrigation water pressure. We are doing some work with a potable water reservoir within an industrial facility that is having some chlorination equipment added, so I understand what you're getting at regarding the bleach. I talked to the vendor and he told me whenever I get the tank size nailed down he will help set up a small chlorination unit.
Thanks.