Water filtration and storage

[Pat]

dummy, I was ignorant of any potential tax liabilties, I'll check into our situation. The cost of getting a meter set to enable you to get rural water kept going up the longer you delayed in "paying up" this was to encourage more participation/more cash to help get system installed. If you opt for disconection, it is easy to get reconnected again **** the meter box is there ready to acccept a meter again B U T there is the matter of the current meter setting fee which is about $1000 now. It was a few hundred dollars about three years before the water was actually available when I joined the rural water assoc for my first meter. I paid nearly $900 for my second (a bit of a misunderstanding so I loose). I intend to try to always use my minimum/baseline quota and avoid escolating costs for any large overages by well water usage. I have an hour meter on my well to measure total run times. That and the average amp draw to power the well tells me about what it costs to pump my own water.

If the economics were different here I might opt for just having the rural water on "standby" too but I think their strategy was to try to "force" greater participation. The current cost of having a meter set again is more than the current cost of 33 years of baseline usage. Cheaper to just use the baseline. Over itme the meter set cost can continue to spiral up. The meter set cost to which I refer is just putting a meter in the meter box. If you don't have a meter box, a totally new installation, then it is more. Believe me, the best deal is to have joined early and to stay within the baseline. Next best is to have a good well to supplement the baseline.

Pat

[Pat]

verbenus, Say a few more words about "shocking" your well. If you tested your water for biologics immediately prior to shocking, would it show any? I have had samples tested and our well is OK, passing all requirements. (It is hard water but that isn't a big health hazard.) I know in some areas there are various contaminants, some from surface water leaching which can introduce various pathogens. Animal waste and fertilizers are big trouble in some areas. Testing for e-coli is the typical check for fecal contamination from animals and people. Around here there is a lot of salt contamination due to cross connection of brine water with "sweet" aquafers from slipshod oil exploration and exploitation. The previous owner tried 5 times to put a well down near where our new house is going and only got salt water. He ran PVC from a good well farther north on the property to within a couple hundred feet of our building site to a frost free hydrant. I'll just extend that.

Bacteriostat implies bacteria control not reduction. There are carbon filters with silver in the matrix which reduces bacteria while water is being stored in the filter body between periods of flow. I'm not so conceerned that our rural water district will distribute unsafe water as I am concerned with the taste and odor of that water. Hence a good portion of my interest in RO.

"Question. I thought RO was supposed to remove all taste from the water. So why would you need a carbon filter after the RO?"

Part of the confusion is definition of terms and loose use of terms. RO in the pure sense, does not remove all disolved gasses (causes most taste and odor problems).

What is typically sold or installed as a RO filter is actually typically three filters. First the water goes through a sediment filter to remove suspended (undisolved solids) materials which would, over time, plug up the RO membrane. Then the water goes through the RO membrane. The pore size of this semi-permeable membrane will pass water molecules, under pressure, but exclude a lot of larger stuff. The third filter in the chain is the final (polishing) filter, typicaly activated charcoal to remove taste and odor causing disolved gases.

Health benefits of removing stuff ranging from asbestos to cysts to some viri are obtained as a result of the RO membrane. The RO membrane rejects a lot of minerals and junk too but will let disolved gasses with bad tastes and odors get through. Hence the need for the final filter.

So if when you say RO filter you mean the DIY kit you install lunder the counter, it produces water equal to or better than just about any bottled water on the market. If you mean just the RO filter itself (just the RO membrane), then it doesn't imply taste and odor free water. Most folks use the first definition and equivalence RO filter to RO "system" , albeit a loose use, it generally communicates OK most of the time in general.

...just tee it together...

Well it is against the law and against the agreement you sign with the rural water district. There is NOT permitted to be a physical connection between your well and the rural water, PERIOD!

Check valves fail, wells can go septic or be contaminated by a variety of means and anything that can go wrong will, and at the worst possible moment. The rural water district is correct and has the best intentions for the public's protection to not allow a physical connection. You might be the best plumber and smartest valve turner in the world and sell your house to a nitwit who will flood the rural water districts distribution with BAD well water.

Even well water suitable for human consumption when stored in big distribution pipes with no bacteriostatic action can breed things that are not safe to drink. I understand your logic in the immediate context but please understand the rural water districts position which guarantees that the nitwit you sell your house with its "NEAT" cross connection to won't kill off the customer base.

Pat

[herbenus]

You asked for a few more words but you obviously know quite a bit about more than I about water treatment. But here goes anyway.

By "shocking" I mean pouring chlorine down the well. There are scientific methods of calculating your total volume, mixing in a large tank with water, and then puring this mix down and distributing. But around here the method is to just pour a half gallon of bleach down the well. I do this and then run water in house till I smell chlorine. Then go to each faucet and run till chlorine is smelled. Filling the water heater takes longer and I don't always completely purge it. It will get circulated through later anyway with a whole well and tank filled with chlorine water. I then let chlorine water sit in pipes for several hours. Then flush out. It's a good time to wash those whites. Also run dishwasher. Now if you want the scientific method, let me know. I found it on a website but will have to track it down.

As far as testing, I probably should test once a year, but don't. I tested old well when we moved in, and new well when it was dug. No bacteria. But I do the chlorine treatment anyway for peace of mind and because sometimes we get a little slime on inside of toilet tanks. I have heard of no problems of chemical, salt, or bacterial nature to neighbors' well so I don't feel too bad about not testing. But it's a good idea so probably I will in the next year.

I have had numerous water problems so could talk about water treatment for hours. When we bought the place it had a well. We had it tested. All fine. I had water softener guys come out to quote and they tested too. All fine. And it tasted great. So I trenched and ran 300 feet of water pipe to the house location. But nobody did a simple ph test. Turns out our water was acidic as evidenced by the blue stains in the tubs of our newly built house. The water was eating the copper pipes. It was a shallow livestock well. ph was 5.6. I added filter, neutralizer, water softener, and a Sears filter that added permanaganate (I think) to water to coat and protect inside of pipes. I fought this water for a year and finally sank a new well.

The drillers must hagve damaged the liner in the new well because I had a lot of sediment for months. It's gone now. I have a new water softener now, sediment filter, and a small 20 gallon pressure tank after softener to build pressure back up. I have the tank from the old well teed in after pressure tank (80 gallon I think) and I use it only for outside watering. I intend to add a charcoal filter under sink with a drinking water spout and I will run a line (plastic?) from it to icemaker/ water dispenser of fridge. Our water actually tastes good although it sometimes pickes up a copper taste. All plumbing in house is copper. Everything from well to house is pvc.

I haven't really looked too much at RO. I thought it was actually a fancy way of distilling water. I didn't realize there were different methods both called RO. I may add RO one day but am still absorbing the cost of our new softener.

By the way, don't know if you're interested or not, but when I shopped around for a softener I found it cheapest from Ohio Water mail order. They have RO, filters, etc, and when I add to my system I definitely will check them out. No tax and shipping was free. Here's a link. http://www.ohio-water-purifiers.com/index.htm

I apologize for being so wordy.

[Phred]

Pat,

I think you have it figured out.

The rumor in my area is that one day soon they will be providing rural water service. When they do I will add it as well. That way you have a backup plus it will add to the property value. Lots of people worry about wells drying out and may not want a house with a well only.

EE has always been my problem too.... you can't spell geek without EE. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Fred

[dummy]

I think this is the right site. They're the ones I got my stuff from too. So far, so good. ohio pure water co.

[dummy]

Locally, they slap on a road frontage tax. Last time I checked, meters are still being set by the "licensed plumber" (permit puller) so costs are not quite that high. No disagreement here about the need to separate the two either.

[herbenus]

Yep, same folks. Don't know why my link wouldn't work. Must be operator error (mine).

[Pat]

dummy, Permit puller????? Oh yeah, permits... I remember when I lived where they had those... So far it seems that I will proceed with construction after only getting one "permit" and that is a registration of the perk test for the septic system. Of course I want everything to national code or better for water, gas, electricity, etc but there are no required permits in my rural area except the state DEQ (Dept of Environmental Quality) registered perk test.

Think about it... What an amazing "buyer beware" real estate market! Plus, since we aren't financing the house there isn't any scrutiny by a lender to ensure any standards. Good thing I believe in quality building practices that in general meet or exceed code. It isn't that I'm getting away with something behind someone's back, I don't think there exists an inspector whose job is to inspect my construction project at my request or for any other reason.

The meter sets are done by a plumber approved by the rural water district (in my case the contractor that laid the main line set both my meter boxes.)

Since property value is enhanced by the availability of rural water it won't be a suprise that the tax guys will SUPEROVERVALUE that in our property tax next time.

Pat

[pault]

I think you have the RO process just a bit off. If anything, the charcoal filter should go before the membrane, to prolong its life. If I recall correctly, failing to prefilter even small amounts of free chlorine concentrations will actually damage the membrane, since chlorine will accelerate the breakdown of the poly membrane. Most low pressure systems use a pre and post filter, with the chlorine remoed by the prefilter, and any residual salts removed by the post filter.

[Pat]

pault, I'm no chemist but if I recall the plumbing parts and connections correctly there are three filters in the common under counter unit. 1. prefilter for sediment to protect the membrane, 2. RO membrane, and activated charcoal filter. The storage tank gets the water after passing through the RO membrane. When water is used it is drawn from the storage tank and passes through the charcoal filter on the way to the spigot. I could have been told wrong but I was told there is still chlorine in the water in the storage tank and that it was removed by the charcoal filter and this was GOOD thing so nothing would grow in the stored water.

Maybe if the chlorine was removed prior to the membrane the membranes would last longer given your membrane eating comments as regards chlorine but you'd have to do other things to ensure nothing grew in the storage tank and or any pathogens were killed at point/time of use like with the UV purification units.

I always suspected that the frequent membrane replacement schedule was a money maker for the vendors. Sort of like giving away razors and selling you the expensive blades.

If the above is not in agreemenet with your experience as regards the way undercounter RO units are plumbed, let me know. I have two new units still in the original boxes waiting to have a house to put them in. I can open them up and check them out.

Pat