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Thread: The perc test that never was.

  1. #1
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    The perc test that never was.

    For some time now I have made references to the problems we had when starting to develop our home site. This is as good a time as any to sit down and share our experience.

    We contracted with a local engineer to do the plans for our home and had nothing but trouble. Being new to the small town, we wanted to work with the locals. In the end that proved to be a very bad decision. The engineer passed the production of the plans to a draftsman and his work load was so heavy that our plans were always put on the back burner. The communication of changes was difficult . After seven months of frustration I took the disputed plans to an architect in a large city near us. He found fourteen serious errors in the plan, far more than I had been demanding be fixed. An example was the first floor did not match the size of the foundation and the stairs did not reach the second floor.

    The foundation error was eighteen inches. The stairs were for an eight foot ceiling and not the nine foot as in the plan. There were a variety of other problems including specifying TJI’s that as the reviewing architect commented would support a semi truck. A full four levels above what would be recommended by the manufacturer. The added cost here was over three thousand dollars just for the TJI’s. The stairs were the biggest problem as there was no easy fix. To make a correction seriously effected the either the roof line or loss of space from the kitchen which was already a little to tight.

    Now for the best part, this engineer was also responsible for the septic system. Our property has a few areas that will perc and a lot that will not. We found an area with the help of an excavator after digging several test holes. The engineer sent a tech out and looked at the selected hole and agreed that we should do the perc tests there. I requested that he call me and that I be there when the test was done. After two weeks I called and asked when the test was going to be done. This was in December in Upstate New York and the snow was coming. I was told that the tests had been done and the system location had passed. When I asked why I was not informed when the test would be done the excuse was ‘I forgot’.

    It was about a week later when I picked up a copy of the report. When I looked at the date listed for the perc test, it was the same day as the test hole was dug. Since my wife and I had spent the rest of that day at the property discussing placement of the house and outbuildings, I really became suspicious. The trouble was that snow now covered the ground so finding the three perc test holes was impossible.

    When the snow melted, I hired another engineer to review the site and the test documents. His conclusion was no perc tests had been done. I contacted the county health board that issued the permit and reported my findings. They immediately sent out a tech to examine the site. Again her conclusion was that no perc tests were done. She told me she had to report to her supervisor and that they would be in contact with me. The next day her supervisor called and said a hearing was going to be scheduled in about three weeks. He also said this was a very serious violation.

    Immediately after I got off the phone my wife and I went to the property and found the tech from the engineering firm at the site with shovel in hand. I made him walk back to the septic site with me. As we walked, he admitted that he did not do the perc tests.
    As soon as the heath office had contacted the engineer, the tech was at the property digging fake perc test holes.

    After a hearing the Board of Health determined that they could not tell if the perc tests had been done or not done. The permit was allowed to stand and the whole issue was swept under the proverbial rug. I had another engineer test the site and it did in fact pass with numbers significantly different from the bogus report.

    I also received a letter from the original engineer saying that I could not build the house he designed for us. As if I would build the house with all the errors. We did have a different design built with the help of a wonderful architect and we love our new home.

    I know this is a long post but believe it or not this is the condensed version. I am no novice to building projects and have had problems before with contractors. However this was the first time that I could say that I ran into a professional that used the above as SOP. It is a cash cow when people pay for tests not done. Most people were just happy to hear that the “tests” were successful and in fact some knew that they were not done on their site either.

  2. #2
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    Having worked for a short time on my towns conservation board, and w/the board of heatlh, I have a hard time understanding how a building permit was issued without a perc test every having been done??? In my town, and most in mass I beleive, a member of the board of health needs to be there and verify/sign off on perc tests...is that not the case where you live?

    Sounds to me like a whole lot of shady business going on...also sounds to me like you perhaps would have a pretty good legal case against your builder...I'd encourage you to talk to one if you haven't already....

    Truly a bummer [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

  3. #3
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    In each county the health board sets the procedures and as a cost cutting measure this county board requires that all systems be designed by an engineer.. That way they do not have to send our their people to supervise. This puts the cost on the home builder even for the simplest system. It also makes the board free of any liability should a system fail.

    Since I was the GC for the project my only recourse was to sue the engineer for the work not done. Since my son is a lawyer it would not cost me for his services. However, all I could recoup would be the cost of the perc test which was about two hundred dollars. It would have cost me at least six hundred to have the second engineer testify and prepare for court. Not a good investment.

    I chose to follow the administrative review and it was a lot less costly for me and far more professionally difficult for the engineer. The decision by the health board got a lot of laughs in the community and some very red faces among the employees of the County Health Department. The board just did not want to deal with the issue so took a neutral position. When I spoke to the state people, they admitted that technically the county board should have pulled the permit if they were in doubt that the perc test had been done. As usual the politicians make up the rules as they go along.

  4. #4
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    You know, hearing this, and what I went through, it's amazing ANYONE build a secound home. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] . When are these builders going to see that this is not a toster? It's a house, that people will live in, and raise there famlys in, and pay a LOT of money for.. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] I mean I work for a car dealer, and you will see people complane about a small scrach in there new car. OK understandable, we fix it. No problem. Now you build a house, and you are suposed to not notice all the defects? "well, no house is perfict" Well why not??? For the money it cost, it should be! [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

    Sorry to rant, but after knowing what I went through,[and still going through] I know what this can do to a famly.

    BTW, I am so glad you enjoy your new house. We are starting to get settled in ours, and eaven with all the problem we have had, we do love it. And most important, my doughter loves it. She has a lot of big open space to play in, and a nice comfy room to sleep in. And that's what's REALY imporant!! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    Paul Bradway


  5. #5
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    <font color="green"> BTW, I am so glad you enjoy your new house. We are starting to get settled in ours, and eaven with all the problem we have had, we do love it. And most important, my doughter loves it. She has a lot of big open space to play in, and a nice comfy room to sleep in. And that's what's REALY imporant!! </font color>

    Glad to see your priorities are in the right place. When you build your next home you will be so much better prepared. There will always be bumps in the road when building but what your builder put your family through was criminal.


  6. #6
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    I do perc tests all the time, in central Mass. Here, one has to dig three ten foot holes. The engineer and member of the local board of health must be present. They get down in the middle ten foot hole, dig by hand and place measurement gauges. Pour in 3 gallons of water then measure time to perc. This is done 3 times back to back. 3, 2 minute percs are considered ideal. The engineer and his gauges jump in my bucket, are pulled out, then placed in one of the other ten ft holes. He has a color chart and places this on each color layer from top to bottom. He records it, and the BOH member records the same. Then, they design the system. Granted of late, it takes the engineers a couple of months for design. Basically because new building isn't the problem, it is older homes and systems that take up all their time. No property to work with, a bad leech field, where can another go, and this type of thing. The neighbors field is ten feet from propoerty lines, etc, etc. Someone here, isn't following recognixed procedures for your particular area. It's that simple.

  7. #7
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    <font color="green"> Someone here, isn't following recognixed procedures for your particular area. It's that simple. </font color>

    The perc tests are for evaporation type systems and the three holes are one foot in diameter and two feet deep. The systems leach lines are only eighteen inches below the surface when installed. The holes have to be presoaked and let stand for several hours. Then they are refilled and the time recorded that it takes to drop per inch.

    The County Health Board wants no part of the septic problems in our area. The Board has passed this all on to private engineers. Most are honest but the guy I dealt with was just a crook. He has taken advantage of many people who just want to get their homes built and willing to agree to pay more for less. An example is a couple building their first home, this jerk agreed to do their home plans for $1800 then when it came time to pick up the plans the cost was $3400. They were in a bind. They had a builder ready to start so it was write the check or cancel the start of their home. When he tried to do the that to me, he ate the cost of the plans. The plans were useless anyway with all the errors.

    We had to postpone the start of our home but that was the only way to handle the situation with all that had happened. This engineer was recommended to me by a builder and needless to say I had a few words with him too.

    There is definitely a conflict of interest if I am paying an engineer to design a system for me and he is also the approval agent for the County Health Department. It also costs residents of our county about six hundred dollars more on average to put in a standard septic than the adjacent counties. All because the residents are required to hire an engineer. This is not the case in the other counties.

  8. #8
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    too bad you got stuck with a bad apple. At least your dropped him and moved on. Here in Mass/Ct the perc tests are obviously done a lot different. They measure and record each layer of soil down to ten feet. we have hundreds of little ponds/lakes etc and probably this is the biggest reason. we are also seeing a lot of the Wisconsin mounds coming in. All of them are rehabbed older systems that now have to be above natural water tables.

  9. #9
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    Engineers and Architects are licensed by the state. I would file a complaint with the State Licensing Board. They have the power to investigate and to pull his license or impose other penalties.

    If an engineer falsified his design documents, he should lose his license.

    Depending on state law, he may have been practising Architecture without a license. Injunears and Arkeeteks are different animals (and often can't stand each other) and are not necessarily competent in each others' fields of practice.

    The Board can also take action against his license for the errors and ommissions on his design. They need to be egregious for him to lose his license, but they do take people's tickets away.

    -Dennis

    Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
    Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

  10. #10
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    Re: The perc test that never was.

    <font color="green"> Engineers and Architects are licensed by the state. I would file a complaint with the State Licensing Board. They have the power to investigate and to pull his license or impose other penalties.
    </font color>

    All the above is true except in New York the State Education Department is the body responsible for licensing of professionals. I spent 31 one years in education in the state and have dealt with at least ten hearings into the competency of teachers. My role was first as a teacher representative and then on the other side as an administrator. I have little hope that the State Education Department would do anything but a token interview without a court conviction.

    It is legal for engineers in the state to draw plans for houses and their signature is all that is required to obtain a permit.

    <font color="green"> If an engineer falsified his design documents, he should lose his license. </font color>

    I could not agree more. He is also guilty of larceny by deception and falsifying a state document. The problem just is getting someone to do something. DA’s office just says sue him and if you win then they will look at other charges. It would cost me more to sue than I would get if I won. I just have to be satisfied that he was called on his practices and the people in the various government positions know the truth. They may not want to go on the record but they really do know what this guy was doing.

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