I have a very serious question here that would make the warm and fuzzy cringe.
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I'm in a middle of a discussion with several fellow dog owners (best friend,my freind the trainer and a couple others) and we are discussion at What point do you decide to put a dog down for aggressive behavour ?
Now a lot of us are dog owners here and we all have responsiblities as such.
Do you wait until your dog bites you ?
How many time does he get to draw blood before enough is enough ?
Do you wait until your dog bites a child ?
Do you wait until you are being suid homeless ?
At what point do you draw the line ?
How many people does he have to bite before realizing that your dog is a menice to society and he needs to be put down ?
I realize that these questions are what most people hate to even think about, never mind having to do... but we do have responsibilites as dog owners.
I know the Warm and Fuzzy response would be never and just isolate the dog, but what about that young child that see's the "Pretty Puppy" and next thing you know the child has been bite and screaming, the parents are scared and screeaming at you, then you know the rest...
I would be interested to hear from the breeders, If they would own a biting dog as well.
i think it would all depend the first bite. if the dog puts up with alot of prodding and then nips and draws blood, you need to keep an eye out to keep it from happening again. on the other hand if it is a savage attack the dog must be put down, no matter how many times it has happened.
you are right this is the last thing i want to think about. that is why i dont leave my dogs unattended around children. no matter what happens, even if the child does something wrong, its my dog that is getting put down not some kid that kicked a dog.
Two years ago, I adopted a golden retriever from a rescue league in northern VT. The dog was 4.5 years old and they knew little of his history. Althought they claim to have tested the dog for aggressive behavior (specifically including food-related aggression), the dog bit me when I tried to move his food dish. This was only a week after I got him so I chalked it up to that fact that he was still in a state of confusion with a new home, etc. One concern I had was the way he bit me. He latched onto my hand and shook his head violently (like killing prey) until someone punched the dog in the ribs.
Tex and I went through obedience training and spent a lot of time together and I thought things were going well. About a year later, my daughter was home from college for a month. She reached into a box of dog biscuits to give him one. When she did a second biscuit fell on the floor. When she went to pick it up, the dog dropped the one in his mouth and latched onto her forearm and shook it violently. Fortunately, my wife was nearby and punched the dog to get him to let go.
I immediately called our vet and she recommneded having him put down. She said that two events in one year, but more importantly, the violence of the attacks told her that the dog could not be trusted around other people. As much as I really loved this beautiful animal, there was no hesitation about the decision (other than the 10-day waiting period required by law).
What you are asking is impossible to answer without a lot more information and observation by competent trainer. However I will try to give you what I can.
<font color="red"> Do you wait until your dog bites you ? </font color>
All dogs in new situations should be closely monitored and tested for aggressive behavior. If this is done properly you should not be reacting after being bitten but training to avoid the bite in the first place.
<font color="red">How many time does he get to draw blood before enough is enough ?
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That is a real hard question. I have been training dogs for 45 years and have only been bitten three times, two of which did not draw blood. The only dog ever to draw my blood turned out to be one of the best GSD that I ever owned. He had been abused and was really quite difficult when he arrived at the kennel at eighteen months old.
At five years old he attacked and ripped up an armed robber who tried to hold up my gas station. That was the only person he ever bit after he got me. He was a great dog and my constant companion until he died at twelve years old.
<font color="red"> Do you wait until your dog bites a child ? <font color="red"> </font color> </font color>
Never allow a dog that you are unsure about to have the opportunity to bite anyone especially a child.
<font color="red">Do you wait until you are being suid homeless ? </font color>
Only if you ignore the answer above.
<font color="red"> At what point do you draw the line ? </font color>
When you and your dog has receive all the training available and still is not trustworthy.
<font color="red"> How many people does he have to bite before realizing that your dog is a menice to society and he needs to be put down ?
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If a dog shows aggressive behavior, it has to be modified immediately and precautions have to be taken to avoid the first bite. With proper training for your family and the dog, most aggressive behavior can be modified. I do stress most. There is always the case that a particular dog just can’t be trusted in given situations. If you are not able to modify the dog or the dog’s environment then the dog should be removed to a more suitable placement. There are dogs that have to be put down because they are dangerous even after attempts at training. Unfortunately yes but that is the responsible action to take.
I am speaking of a 4 yr old dog Boston Recue that has a history of bitting (nipping) its owners ( resently deceased ) which I didn't find out until AFTER I acquired the dog.
Since acquiring him, he has unprovoked bit a military cop's finger, no signs of irritation.. just run up and bit his hand (was dismissed as mistaken his gloved hand for a chew toy at the time) and has in defiance latched onto my hand after running him down from the great escape and leading him home by his collar and the next day flat out biting laying my finger open in two places. I lost it that day and he found out this was not a good thing. The past two days he has been very careful not to show any agression and I have been careful not to cause him to fear me. You can say we both are on our best behaviour.
When I first bought him from the rescue... I had to stop him from playing because he would get into this frenzy that would just prepetuate itself to a point that he would turn into this pscyco dog... I first thought it was cute, but now with all the pieces of the puzzle in place... it's no longer cute, it's sadning for me.
This isn't my first dog I've ever trained, but it is the first totally defiant "OLDER" dog I have gotten. My previous dogs were obtained while they were in there puppy yrs.
There is more history to this dog that I don't feel is nessesary to share other than the dog did nip/bit when ever the original owners had him. He was not socialized with people , children or other animals...
I spoke with my vet and he told me that he has only came across 1or2 Bostons in his 30 yrs as a Vet that has showed these agressive defiant signs. He told me I only have two choices since his behaviour as been allowed for so long and that I have7 young children on each side of me and about 16 just on my street under 12 yrs of age. Prozac at $150-$200 a month with no guarantee since he wasn't altered until resently and this agression is pretty much ingrained in him or put him down. My trainer friend has suggested extreme training or puting him down.
I suppose I know what eventually will need to be done... I was hoping for a miricle answer. Charlie is such a well behaved dog with a strong confident personality when he isn't having his psyhcotic episodes, but it is his unpredictability that the vet emphisized that will get me in trouble, that and he does has a history.
I haven't given up on him yet, but.....
Thanks for listening [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Unless you can isolate him from the children this could be a disaster waiting to happen. If the dog were my responsibility, I would make sure that there is no way that a child could set him off. Even then I would use a muzzle until training has shown a positive effect.
A slow process of socialization with dog experienced adults followed by careful introduction of a few children with the most vigilant supervision. Most of all never play rough with him or allow others to do so. This guy has not learned the limits so you cannot push him or he will just go too far.
Dealing with aggressive dogs is half patience and half dominance. This little guy has to see you as the boss and the boss controls food and comfort. Don’t tick the boss off if he want treats and companionship. Train him to sit, stay, lay down, roll over and more. Reward him and praise him to let him know you are in control. Socialize him and train him not to jump and be extra firm when he meets children or new adults.
You said you both are on your best behaviors after the bitting incident. When you punished him, you let him know that you were not happy with him and it sounds like he did respond. My dad trained dogs for protection and guard duty and weighed about 110 lbs. He never abused the dogs but they knew who was boss because he loved them and took care of them. He also had a two hundred pound voice and used it to command the dogs obedience. I am a lot bigger than my dad but the E-5 routine of in your face works better than hitting them. Reward is still the best training tool but negative reinforcement has its time and place. When either of my Giant Schnauzers gets in trouble they get bald out and sent to their cage. The other innocent one usually starts for their cage too until I tell them not to go to “bedâ€Â. The innocent one heads there just in case they are in trouble too.
Your little guy is a terrier at heart and with his history I can see why he is the way he is. Start with a plan and work with him and I bet you will find he will respond. There is always a trigger that makes them snap or bite. Just work to disarm that trigger and you will have a happy little guy.
It depends upon the dog. You can cut a tiny dog some slack and explain away the biting because they can't do much damage, but with a big dog it needs to be addressed quickly. For us it was 1 1/2 weeks ago. Our blood hound bit a service man as he was walking up the back path towards the basement entrance. Previously he had nipped a few times when startled while eating or surprised by a stranger, but this time he bit. We notified animal control immediately, reviewed his history with our vet and put him in quarantine. On Monday he will be put down.
We could have made excuses about him being old, not seeing well, startled, etc... but what it came down to is that we could not trust that he would NEVER bite again and with a 140lb dog that risk is unacceptable.
<font color="red"> We could have made excuses about him being old, not seeing well, startled, etc... but what it came down to is that we could not trust that he would NEVER bite again and with a 140lb dog that risk is unacceptable. </font color>
Andy you had a very hard decision but you are right on the money. There are times when you have to look past your heart and just do the right thing. A big dog can do a lot of damage and being responsible for that is not to be taken lightly.
Just a note on little dogs, my father was bitten at a dog show by a ten pound terrier. He had to have three surgeries on his hand to correct the damage. Dad was looking at the dog to buy for breeding needless to say that did not happen. This same dog later bit a judge and finally was put down.
This is always a hard decision. Let me preface my response by saying that though my wife and I rescue golden retrievers (and actually specialize in rehabilitating horribly abused goldens), we are not a no-kill organization. We are neither heartless, nor PETA zealots...but we have some firm guidelines in handling rescue dogs.
As a pup, a well-socialized dog will quickly learn that biting hurts its playmates whether canine or human. A pup taken from its litter too soon, wisked hundreds of miles from home in a metal cage and displayed in a pet store has missed a few weeks of critical socialization. Most recover from it, but a few do not. Some of those who do not don't because their humans cage them or isolate them in the backyard where no lessons can be learned, and no socialization takes place. We see a lot of these in rescue. We handle them one of two ways, or sometimes both. (1) I, being the Alpha Male in my pack, will flip the dog upside down and bury my face is his throat, roaring furiously all the time. This is called an alpha roll and is something you can generally get away with on goldens. I would not recommend this unless you know what you're doing (in the Marines we were taught how to handle attacking dogs) and there are some breeds I would never attempt such a thing with. (2) We let our pack of five goldens do the correcting. In fact, if a rescue bares his fangs at me or my wife, two and sometimes three of our dogs will bare theirs and surround the newcomer to protect the human members of the pack. (3) In most cases, abused dogs bite out of fear. In cases like that we humans simply ignore the dog if it is not misbehaving and let our pack do the socializing. Eventually the newcomer will see that no harm ever comes to the others at our hand, and will in his or her own good time initiate a relationship with us. That's the start of the rehab process, and in the vast majority of cases the dog is well enough to place in a new home in a couple of months. All have special needs, and we do our best to meet those needs in potential adopters. (Which is why, in rescue, there is no first-come, first-served. We place dogs in homes that best meet their needs.) If the newcomer does not accept the rules, or at least show progress in respecting boundaries, he or she is euthanized.
Heartless? Maybe. But we deal with a breed known for its gentleness. This makes the aggressive golden an extremely dangerous animal for kids or anyone thinking Cujo is cute and cuddly because of his breed. We're also dealing with the popularity of the breed. Any popular breed is considered a cash crop by unscrupulous backyard breeders who don't give a hoot about anything but how much money each litter will bring. Vet care impacts the bottom line, so that's out of the question. Knowing the genetics of your breeding stock? Why bother when the pups are so cute they'll be out of your hair in two months? And most people who buy from someone with no love of the breed are pretty easy to convince that any behavioral issues are their own doing, that they didn't know how to raise the dog.
Jeez, I'm rambling! The short answer to your question is, IMO, that there are times when a dog should be put down. And the longer answer is that I wish there was a law that made it illegal for certain people to own a dog. Just like a child abuser can never adopt a child.
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