Boondox,
Thanks for rambling. I enjoyed hearing your techniques for socialization and will remember them for future use. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
Boondox,
Thanks for rambling. I enjoyed hearing your techniques for socialization and will remember them for future use. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
I check my dog constantly. When he was a puppy, I'd take his food away from him and see how he reacted (wagging tail), next I had strangers do the same (wagging tail). I've done this with toys, bones etc. and always get the same response (wagging tail). Then I watch how he plays with children, he acts like one of them with a wagging tail. Even the best dog can run short on patience when a kid is pulling his tail and ears, but it should never result in aggressiveness. Most dogs will remove themselves from the annoyance when it becomes too much.
A dog doesn't need to be aggressive to be a good guard dog. Dogs seem to have the uncanny ability to know when someone doesn't belong, is up to no good, or the safety of their owner is in jeopardy and will act accordingly.
I have zero tolerance for an aggressive and unpredictable dog. At the slightest indication of such, I'd be making other arrangements for the dog. I'd either find the dog a new home that suits his personality or euthanize it. The liability is too great.
<font color="red"> A dog doesn't need to be aggressive to be a good guard dog. Dogs seem to have the uncanny ability to know when someone doesn't belong, is up to no good, or the safety of their owner is in jeopardy and will act accordingly.
I have zero tolerance for an aggressive and unpredictable dog. At the slightest indication of such, I'd be making other arrangements for the dog. I'd either find the dog a new home that suits his personality or euthanize it. The liability is too great. </font color>
I agree with the above except for the word aggressive. This maybe just semantics but there are breeds that are naturally aggressive and that is not a bad trait. If being passive is the opposite of being aggressive, then I would have to say that a protective dog has to be aggressive to some extent.
Passive dogs don’t make the first cut in training a dog for protection. I have worked with many dogs that were very aggressive and protective. They are a big responsibility and training is an absolute must. Just because a dog is confident and protective, may be read aggressive, does not mean that they are dangerous. I owe my hide to a very protective GSD that was yes, very aggressive when the situation called for his action. Thunder was also the biggest love you could ever meet and was very good with all children, adults, small dogs and cats. However when he was working, he was that very aggressive dog that everyone feared. He took his job seriously and did it well. He also only bit one person after his training and that was just doing his job again protecting me.
There now is almost a fear of using the word aggressive to describe a dog’s personality. Most times we all hear protective substituted. Socialization and training make an aggressive breed safe to own. On the flip side an untrained dog of the same breed that is aggressive but more so unpredictable is a real danger. As I said it is just semantics. A dangerous dog is still a problem that needs attention. Any dog that bites unpredictably is a serious threat to those who encounter it.
Lot of good info here. I've always had dogs from puppies so can't speak too much to re-socializing. We have a female rottweiler, small for the breed at 100lbs but we made sure from the start that she knew who was the alpha dog. I can put my face down to her dog dish while eating with complete saftey. Take the food away, give it back etc. We started that when she was a puppy and think you should be able to do that with any dog. As mentioned, you'r need for caution increases as the dog gets bigger. A dachsund bite may be inconvenient but a rotty latching onto your arm and shaking like a rag doll can cause some serious damage. And no matter HOW well you have an animal trained I'm NEVER comfortable leaving them unattended around small children. Dogs don't identify kids as superior to them because they are on the same level and all a kid has to do is poke an eye, pull an ear etc.
<font color="purple"> I can put my face down to her dog dish while eating with complete saftey. Take the food away, give it back etc. We started that when she was a puppy and think you should be able to do that with any dog. </font color>
This is the only way it should be. All of our dogs, including our Police K-9, follow this rule. They underststand "drop it" and do so. They will yield with anything they consider food.
Of course the down side is they bring you a lizard or a snake or mouse and say "do you want this too" [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
Thanks for all the good responses.
Since my post where I was distraught over this dog that I became so attached with, I have been watching him and thinking what went wrong last Thurs and Fri when he bit me. (yes, 2 times)
Keep in mind he is a 4 yr old rescue that has a lot of radical changes since the death of both his owners.
Charlie's issue is defiance and social manners.
Since our last round as much as I hate to admit of "losing it" after he drew blood, he has since began showing true signs of submission or acceptance of me being alfa male and where his place is. He looks at me for acknowledgment when he's not sure, not in a cowaring way , but in a respective way. He has began showing signs of respecting me as the alfa male and responding to my commands .
Today he actually came to me and pestered me for personal attention... before I had a chance to lay down on the couch, he was there and he laid up by my chest instead of my feet which he never has done to this before.
He has began responding to me when I make a certain sound when he becomes overly excited and calms right down. When he starts with his mouthing and I just hold his mussle and say no bite and he responds now and calms right down. I even noticed a radical change in his playing... He's careful to how he reacts, not as aggressive, but still playfull.
I guess what I am saying is it seems that after that last incident, he seen the light. His whole demeaner has change. He seems to have a new found respect if that could be said (I do too with what he's capible of)
Now I have to work with his social manners with others, but first things first.
What is unusual about this little boston is when his shackles are up and he's raising total hell.. he's just putting on a show that results in just wanting to be friends and some attention, but you would never know it. HOWEVER, when he is quiet, no barking or growing, no actual signs that I've noticed is when he nips at other larger dogs. I "think" this is more of bad social behaviour or lack of.
I suspect that I'm dealing with several problems/issues at once where I need to address one at a time and who's the boss is # 1.
Right now he has done a complete 180, so time will tell. If he regresses, I'll do what I have to.
Can you say 4 legged parahnna ? [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
Sounds like you have turned a big corner. Just don't let down and continue to socialize him carefully.
Hiya Handyman,
You have met our blue heeler Bart. We had a biting problem when Mike first came into my life and moved into the house.
Bart too is a trucking dog and has been riding in an 18-wheeler from the time he was 6 weeks old spending 24/7 with only me. Bart totally resented this new intruder (Mike) into our lives and made it very clear. Everything from not letting him in the bedroom to challenging for a spot next to me on the couch. Biting, nips, growling, barking you name it.
We contacted a dog trainer who said that Mike had to assert his alfa male status in the house and show Bart that he called the shots. For 2 months everything Bart needed had to be asked for and only Mike could give it to him, food, treats, fresh water, belly scratches and any aggession was not to be tolerated no matter how slight. If Bart decided to show his hateful side Mike had to hold Barts head down on the floor for about 20 seconds and softly say 'Bad Dog'. This established Mikes role as the alpa male. It did take some time but we have it all together now.
The following artical I cut and pasted for some prespective. This happened only about 45 miles from where we live. Sad case indeed. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
Posted on Thu, Sep. 11, 2003
Dog's shelter faces criminal probe
The adopted Doberman killed its Medford owner. The police chief vowed an aggressive investigation.
By Troy Graham
Inquirer Staff Writer
Burlington County authorities have launched a criminal investigation into an animal shelter that allowed a Medford woman to adopt a Doberman pinscher that was supposed to have been euthanized for biting its previous owner.
The dog mauled and killed its new owner, 67-year-old Valerie deSwart, in her Stokes Road home Sunday, just 10 days after she adopted him from a Newark, N.J., shelter run by the Associated Humane Societies.
The Doberman's previous owner, a North Jersey woman, paid the shelter $55 to put down and cremate the 95-pound dog after it bit her this year. Instead, the shelter placed the dog in a pool for adoption.
"We are aggressively pursuing the investigation for a criminal nature," Medford Police Chief Edwin E. Wood said. "We need to do an aggressive, complete investigation. That's owed to the victim and her family."
He said his investigators had interviewed the dog's previous owner and confirmed that the dog had attacked her. He declined to identify her.
Wood said he intended to have the dog destroyed. The dog's legal owner - deSwart's daughter - can appeal the decision, he said, but she has agreed that the Doberman should be euthanized.
Wood could not say who might face criminal charges in the case or provide a timetable for completing the investigation.
"That would be fact-specific. It could be individuals," he said. "It depends on involvement, acts."
Robert D. Bernardi, the Burlington County prosecutor, said that "at a minimum there's a breach of contract" by the shelter for not euthanizing the dog - although, he said, that is a matter for the civil courts.
"There may be an issue of theft by deception," he said. "If they took money never intending to kill the dog - and you can prove that - there's a theft charge."
Harry Jay Levin, a lawyer for the Associated Humane Societies, said the shelter simply had made a mistake by not destroying the 3-year-old Doberman. He said Tuesday that three shelter employees had told deSwart in person that the dog had bitten its previous owner.
The woman's son disputed that, saying his mother "would have never brought it home" had she known.
DeSwart's boyfriend discovered her dead in her bedroom when he came home from work. The dog, which deSwart had named Luger, was covered in blood and lying on a comforter in the room.
Investigators treated the case as a homicide until an autopsy determined Monday that deSwart had died from a dog bite.
The shelter is examining Luger's adoption "from beginning to end" and "speaking to every employee who had a hand in the process," Levin said. The shelter has instituted more layers of safeguards, but it had not determined why the Doberman was allowed to be adopted.
Levin also said he did not know why shelter employees, who knew the dog had a history of biting, did not realize that it was supposed to have been euthanized.
"That's the issue we're trying to determine," Levin said. "What mistake was made by a human being that allowed this to happen?"
Levin said he did not know of a similar mistake ever taking place at the shelter.
"Never. Absolutely never," he said. "They've been in business for 30 years, they handle about 15,000 animals a year, and this is the first time."
He also said deSwart, before adopting the dog, had signed a disclaimer that provides no warranties "with regards to the health or demeanor" of the animal. While the disclaimer provides the shelter with some protection from lawsuits, Levin would not address the liability in this case.
"Everyone's so upset about what happened," he said. "I don't think anyone's focusing on liability."
Martha Armstrong, senior vice president at the Humane Societies of the United States, said her group urged all shelters not to put up for adoption animals with a history of biting.
"Everybody who attends one of our training programs knows that if you get a call about an animal that has bitten, you do not tell them: 'Bring them in, and we'll find them a new home,' " she said.
In New Jersey, there are no regulations regarding how shelters handle an animal surrendered by an owner.
"It's really a management decision as to whether the dog is fit for adoption," said Jennifer Sciortino, a spokeswoman for the state Department of Health and Senior Services.
The dog that killed deSwart was at the Newark shelter for 87 days and did not show any aggressiveness, which might explain why it was allowed to be adopted, Levin said.
But Armstrong said the Newark shelter had "a moral responsibility, if not a legal responsibility," to euthanize the dog.
"That's a bit disconcerting, that the data on the animal that said he was supposed to be euthanized was not accompanying the data that said he had bitten," she said.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Contact staff writer Troy Graham at 856-779-3893 or tgraham@phillynews.com.
Everything in life comes full circle, it's just a matter of time.
Dogs literally exist to serve at man's pleasure. They are not 4 legged people even though some don't know that.) Although treated as children, surrogate or otherwise, they are as much creations of man as they are decendants of Asian wolves. Man has to take the responsibility for taming the wolf and bringing it into the cave. It is truly an awesome responsibility and everyone involved with dogs should realize their ulltimate control remains in killing the dog that doesn't or can't ultimately conform sufficiently to a man supplied environmental circumstance.
If you aren't willing to accept this ulltimate responsibility then you should forgo the pleasure of the company of dogs.
There is a lot of indiscriminate breeding , buying, trafficing in dogs. There are TOO MANY dogs. Too many dogs being abused through acts of comission as well as omission. Dogs are not that far removed from wolves, irrespective of the modified appearance and when you bring a dog into your life or a social situation with other people you are accepting a terrible responsibility for the consequences if any of a number of things go wrong. When it works out well, it is a joy unachieved by virtually any other means. When it goes bad we are responsible to others to act in a manner consistent with the safety of others, even if that means (use whatever euphamisn you prefer) put down, put to sleep, whatever, KILL the dog. We have to accept the responsibility that we are literally playing god with the lives of these cosmetically modified wolves and that we bury our mistakes.
This sounds harsh, I know but it is the botom line when things go bad. We can squirm and whine, hire others to do it "HUMANELY" and wish it were not thus but it falls to us humans to destroy our creation if it doesn't or can't suit our purpose. The alternative is life in prison with no parole. Yes you could institutionalize dogs rather than euthanize (note how euthanize slips so easily off the tongue and sounds so much more compassionate than KILL?) the animal.
It is unrealistic to think that the majority of people who will become dog owners will understand and accept their responsibility. More and more I see dogs treated like a stuffed toy that runs on whatever dog food is currently on discount instead of batteries. If it becomes inconvenient for any reason such as growing out of puppyhood, give it away or take to to the pound.
Most dog problems are people problems.
Pet 'em if you got 'em..
Pat
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Pat, good post... strong yes, but good...
It's been a couple weeks now since the incident and things are getting better. he is actually becoming more affectionate.
Charlie was a rescue that I obtained. This dog should have never have been adopted out or atleast they should have done their home work more efficiently. Now I'm having to that the ultimate responsibility and rehabilitate this dog or put him down. He is a very remarkable dog and I would hate to see him go by way of doggy heaven because of his previous owners.
He is coming around nicely, but not without some hard times.
You are correct when you say we have to take responsibility. You musy interact with your pets or they will go wild or atleast be unsocialable and unpredictable.
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