Diesel conversion?

[beetlebrain]

Thanks everyone,
We are way too far into the woods to "run for gas, diesel, etc" everytime we need it which is why I want to "store, get a supply of my own, etc". We use regular gas for the snowblower, diesel for the tractor, regular for the saw, regular for the truck, regular for the generator.
That's like a lot of regular, come to think of it. What I'm thinking of [ any input appreciated ]is to get the standard 275 gallon home fuel tank for the regular storage and a 55 gallon drum for the diesel. Ofcourse, on a secure solid pad.
With this "reserve" we won't have to keep running out for 5 gallon pails of the stuff. We'd waste more getting it than if stored at the homestead.
I'd use a second drum, 55 gallon, as the transfer tank.
Hey any problem if I got diesel fuel with the drum, then got regular, you know use only one transfer tank for both but making sure that it was emptied before using for another type fuel? Would a few drops mixed make a big deal for the respective engines?
Oh on another note; It is great having a forum as this where people can come to get ideas, share experiences, and ponder the unthinkable. Bird I enjoy very much reading of all your "experiences"
It's a pleasure everyone, Beetlebrain [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[robertn]

What HP does your generator use?

You can get small diesel engines to replace the gas engine on the generator, in pull or electric start. I have used a tamper/whacker with a diesel engine; I think it was a 5hp or so.

Northern Tool has some www.northerntool.com
Do a search on diesel engines. Others are available; I think the tamper had a "Robin" engine on it(made by Subaru?)

It would be nice to use a single fuel. No cans to mix up accidentely ect

[Pat]

I hope my laughter wasn't toooooo rude when I read about the gas to diesel conversion. You'd be better off converting to LPG (propane) as the technology and tech support are there for gas to propane conversions. Propane has an indefinite storage life (LOOOONG time), sealed tank = no evaporation. You can buy as large a tank as you want basically and have a long term supply.

If you want to laugh at GMC take a look at the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) on the gas engines they converted to diesel during the FUEL CRISIS OIL SHORTAGE that had us lining up to buy gas on alternate days. They had the audacity to sell trucks and cars with "diesel" engines. I had a friend who sold his truck with a new engine in it, his third new engine counting the one it came with, both swaps were under warranty and low miles.

NEVER buy more gas than you will consume in 6 months. Any gas stored over a few weeks should have STABIL or other preservative added to it while it is "fresh bought." Different gas formulations decompose at different rates. There are worse things than loosing a little power due to "old gas." Varnishes and gums begin to form as the fuel ages and they tend to coat surfaces exposed to the old gas and plug up things best not plugged up. A small gas generator left with gas in it so as to be ready just in case, could become so clogged that it won't work. NOT GOOD! I have a small single cyl made for gasoline converted to propane electric start generator that can put out a little over 2 KW or so, almost 20 amps at 120 volts. The gas to propane conversion is dead simple. Oil stays clean, spark plug stays clean, starts right up after long term storage.

Propane stand by generators (and of course diesel) are much better arrangements. If costs dictates that you must use a gas generator (I have one), either store it empty and run dry or use STABIL or equivalent and rotate the fuel and replace it with fresh (with STABIL) every few months, not to exceed 6 months.

If while the generator is running you shut off the gas supply and when it starts to misfire from lack of fuel you turn the choke on progressively till it will run with full choke, you will have removed most of the fuel from the fuel circuit. This leaves very little gas to decompose and gum up the works. If your carb type uses a "float bowl" drain it. Now you should be good with STABIL-ized fuel in the tank for up top 6 months. It will only take a moment for fuel to fill the bowl and be available to the carb after you turn the gas back on.

Generally, 6 month old STABIL-ized gas can be added to a car's gas tank a few gallons per fillup and never be noticed and not harm the car. I try to rotate the contents of several of my 5 gal cans every 3-5 weeks and not need to use STABIL in all of them. Sometimes when It is time to fill the gas pickup, I pour in 5 gal from the jerry can and when I fill up at the station, I refill the jerry can. This keeps the extra supply fresh without STABIL.

I would strongly recommend NOT storing a large quantity (greater than 5 gal) of gasoline anywhere near an inhabited or combustible structure. Further, although it is entirely possible to walk across the highway without looking in either direction, it is NOT SAFE!

If you must store a drum of gasoline it is important that you buy or construct a proper vent, one that will not allow flame to pass through it. You will be amazed at all of the potential sources of ignition that could generate a disaster with a drum storing gas. I further suggest you get a plug for the output end of the gas pump and plug it when not in use. The vent hole for storage, not when pumping gas, can be pretty small and will lessen evaporation. A pipe cap or similar with a small hole in it to be removed when pumping gas would do the job. Be careful to not undersize the hole as if it rust shut of a bug plugs it or ... you might (or might not!) live to regret it.

And finally... ground the gas storage drum. Be static wise. When you fill a tank at a gas station, keep the nozzle in contact with the metal filler hole of your vehicle. Gasoline is an insulator and on low humidity days (you get shocked walking across a rug or sliding across a car seat) the moving gasoline can generate enough static electricity to make a spark jump between the car's filler hole and the metal gas nozzle. This can spoil your day! You might be surprised to know how frequent these fires happen. Once in a while it causes an explosion. When we fuel a light plane, the plane is grounded to a ground post, the fuel truck is grounded as well and the nozzle is kept in contact with the filler hole. Better safe than sorry. If you have to store a large quantiy of gasoline, treat it like storing dynamite with static sensitive blasting caps attached. It can be done safely but requires a little thinking and adherence to well established handling methods not just whatever some good ole boy did and lived to talk about. //DUTCH UNCLE MOFE OFF//

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Bird]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
If you want to laugh at GMC take a look at the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failures) on the gas engines they converted to diesel

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I guess GM will never live that down, and while I agree they that erred, I can't help but wonder how much of the problems were due to people who did not use a motor oil rated for diesel engines. One of my brothers, one of my wife's brothers, and one of her nephews had those GM (converted) diesels and never had a problem. Well . . ., they did have one problem and that was resale or trade-in value, which was almost nothing after 100k miles and with the reputation others had given them by that time. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[beetlebrain]

Ok, Pat
Let me try to see if I understand.
The 275 gallons of gas - bad idea! Why then do I see all these farmers with fuel tanks for all their equipment? They have 500 gallon tanks and right now during winter aren't really using a lot of fuel.
If I wanted to do the storage thing, correct me if I'm wrong,
I should get a nice copper grounding rod and drive that to china with a wire running to and attached to the storage tanks?
Both of them?
How do I ground the "transfer" tank I will be using in the utility trailer? It will only be carried temporarly while going to get a "refill".
Do I have a "grounding" wire that is attached to the metal frame of the trailer and when I load it attach it to the transfer drum?
I know all this sounds like crazy, but we are really far off in the woods and running for five gallon containers of gas takes a whole tank in the truck-really far!!!
Yes, the gas will sit at times, but when we use it, look out. I'll use ten gallons alone for the snowblower for one snowfall-really big snowblower !
Oh, did I mention we are FAR in the woods- in 4 wheel low, needed, it's ten minutes per mile.
So we are trying to limit the trips in and out, hence "get some stored fuel".
I want to make sure I do this right, don't want to "get my wings" before it's time [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
I would be interested also in how the gasoline engine of my 10 hp generator could be converted to LP. Heck, if there was a way to change the snowblower too, I'd be on a roll. the truck could be next [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Only thing with the blower is "dragging" around a cylinder.
With the Gen I could always use a BBQ 20#er for use around the homestead land, if need be. for the most part the Gen will be sitting in one spot.
Any ideas and help is appreciated!! Beetlebrain

[beetlebrain]

Oh, does the STABIL apply to diesel fuel also?

[egon]

"Do I have a "grounding" wire that is attached to the metal frame of the trailer and when I load it attach it to the transfer drum?"

The ground wire should run from the grounded storage tank to the transfer tank.

Can a propane delivery truck make it to your place if you are running in four wheel low range.

EGON

[beetlebrain]

NO- THEY'RE ALL A BUNCH OF PANSIES!!
To quote them,"...we're not going travel all the way back there in the woods on a dirt road..."
Actually, I prefer it that way!!!
I don't want some stupid company telling me what I can't do because it won't "bring them money".
Let them keep out and I'll get my own fuels, I don't mind in the least bit.
They honeslty said it wouldn't be profitable for them, bunch of marrooonnnns, or is it macarroonns? [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Most anything I could possibly tell you as regards safety in fuel handling will be pooh poohed by a few good ole boys who did such and such and never died because of it. Fueling without following proper procedures is like playing Russian Roulette, stick with it and you will likely have an event to regret.

Ever hear of drip gas? distillate? Well it seems in "OIL COUNTRY" where crude oil is passed around between the well, storage tanks, pumps, etc., there is often opportunities for the natural distillation of certain fractions of the petroleum. Some of these fractions will condense on cool surfaces and collect in fair quantities, MANY GALLONS. I have seen a 5 gallon can of drip gas turn into 4 gallons of drip gas in a half hour as lighter fractions boil out. This can be used as motor fuel in a car that will burn regular. Higher compression engines would knock, sometimes a lot. Vapor lock was a hazzard in summer. You could really smell this stuff when a car was using it. NUMEROUS HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS AND OTHERS were burned to various degrees procuring this free fuel, mostly due to callous disregard for or ignorance of safety precautions.

You don't need to be totally paranoid about fuel lhandling but a little paranoia is a good safety promoter. Do drive a good copper coated ground rod similar to those used in electrical systems. Drive it where the soil has good conductivity (stays damp most of the time. Sandy soil that is subject to drying out is a BAD thing. You can add salt to the area you drive the rod and you can sprinkle it in dry weather if the soil tends to get realy dry.

Connect the ground rod to a ground wire with a proper clamp sold for the purpose, not just a twist of the wire or a hose clamp. Make a good secure electrically conductive connecton to all fuel storage tanks.

Listen to Egon. When transfering fuel to and from your transfer tank (on truck) it would be good to have a flexible ground wire to extend from the storage tank to our transfer tank. You do need to keep all metal nozzles in contact with metal tanks while transfering fuel to prevent static sparks. It is a bad idea in general to top off and spill gas but it is encouraging static sparks when you pull the delivery nozzle out of contact with the filler opening and watch the stream flow into the tank.

There are fuel storage preservatives for diesel fuel.

Too bad your propane dudes are such wimps. Of course a motivated dude like you could easily take a 100 gal propane tank to town to fill. It would be handy to have two tanks so you weren't out of business while the tank was going to town and back (if that is an issue for you) One can be a lot smaller if yo prefer.

I would check with a large RV maintenance place or a large seller of standby generators or... to find conversion info/parts for a 10HP generator. My propane powered generator was made for gasoline but has a "factory" conversion kit installed. It is a rather small quiet unit mounted in my slide in pickup camper. It has remote start/stop, very convenient. Not much to worry about as there is no deterioration of fuel to clog the carb and it starts right up after even a year or two of non use. It has convenient spin off oil filter so maint is easy and I expect it to last for decades since I don't run it much.

Are you sure the BIG tanks you see are gasoline and not diesel?

If they use STABIL or equivalent they could hold gasollne over the winter without it going bad, especially since deterioration is a chemical process which is slowed with reduced temps.

Another consideration for long term storage is biologic contamination. BioBor or equivalent stops "stuff" from growing in fuel tanks. I use it in my diesel truck (65 gal tank).

A 20 lb cylinder of propane is about the equivalent of 3 gal of gas. How long will 3 gal of gas run your genny? You might want to consider larger cylinders. I have seen manifold systems set up to allow multiple cylinders to be connected and consumed in parallel to get longer run times on appliances without loss of service and still only have to handle the smaller cylinders. I would rather use a chain hoist and take a 100 gallon tank to town than fuss with a lot of little ones. You could manifold a 20 lb or larger cylinder in with the 100 and let the little one take care of business while the big one was making the trip.

Rather than sonsider my (or any of our) comments as conclusive, I suggest you consult with an experienced person who knows the "CODE" as regards fuel storage tanks and safe practices or consult the appropriate pubs (internet search?)

You will always find someone willing to stand beside your gas tank and lecture you on how overboard you are going toward safety while taking out a cigarette to light.

Don't let some idiot try to talk you out of being safe. Fuel storage can be safe or extremely dangerous depending on how it is done and how the fuel is added and removed.

You may recall hearing about the Predator and or other UAVs. Before I retired, the Navy was developing, at considerable cost, a heavy fuel (diesel or jet fuel) piston powered UAV so they wouldn't have a gasoline powered device on board. The Navy understands fueling safety and dangers of storing gasoline. They were going to considerable expense and suffering performance and payload capacity hits to AVOID having gsoline at sea whre a fire could ruin your whole day.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Bird]

From Pat </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I have a small single cyl made for gasoline converted to propane electric start generator that can put out a little over 2 KW or so, almost 20 amps at 120 volts. The gas to propane conversion is dead simple. Oil stays clean, spark plug stays clean, starts right up after long term storage.


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If you don't want to burn gasoline in that generator, then Pat's idea for the LPG conversion would be my recommendation also. When I bought my last travel trailer (32' fifth wheel), I had the dealer install a 4.5 KW Kohler generator to run on LPG, electric start, with the start button and hour meter inside so I didn't even have to go outside to start it. I'm not sure exactly how much LPG it used, but I had two 40# bottles with an automatic changeover regulator, so I never ran out. According to what I've read in the RV literature, you lose about 11% running on LPG vs. gasoline and I knew that 4 KW would run everything I wanted to run in the RV.