Two coyotes attacked my fat border collie tonight. Advice please!

[beenthere]

Probably your collie has been invading the 'territory apparent' of the coyotes and they are just trying to defend that territory. The best one wins. Now the dilema is to figure out how long you let the battle go on. Tie up and protect the collie, or try to take out the coyote(s). I find coyotes are always on the move, and are hard to get a good bead on them with a rifle, or even a shotgun, for that matter. Had one stalking my turkey decoy, and had a bead on it, but didn't shoot. Too afraid I would chase away a Tom turkey while doing it. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

IMO, letting dogs run isn't a good idea, as they tend to form packs and can be more lethal to farm animals (and even children) than wild animals. And, yes, even the docile family pet can become one of the 'gang'. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Had it happen.

[Pat]

Not to be an alarmist and be characterized as a "Chicken Little" but I recommend you read some of the material available from a Google search on the topic of coyote attacks on humans, especially children. You don't want to be a prisoner in your own home but you don't want to risk a child either. Did yo see the MEryl Streep movie where she portrayed the mother of a child carried off by dingoes? A true story.

As more folks move into the coyote's territory the rules of engagement change. Ultimately there will be a clash and steps, offensive or defensive, will need to be taken, hopefully prior to a dreadful incident. A good question is what is reasonable and prudent. The odds of a residential structure located at "ground zero" of "Tornado Alley" in Oklalhoma (essentially where I am writing this) sustaining significant structural damage (likely to harm occupants significantly) is on the order of once in 4000 years as per the severe storm folks in the National Weather Service's severe weather ouitfit in Norman, Oklahoma. I wanted a safe room in the new house we are building. Over reacting? Obviously, I don't think so. The liklihood of such an event is low but if it happens, the results are catastrophic so I believe the prudent person prepares.

Same deal with coyotes. I'd be prepared. Clearly it is not practical to keep children indoors ALL THE TIME nor to have an adult accompany them all the time.

Shooting a couple coyotes isn't a good solultion either. It may make you feel better as we usually think it is better to do something than nothing. Consider bailing the Titanic with a thimble. Would it help? Coyotes are mobile. As you remove threat units additional ones will diffuse into the area to fill the niche of those you remove. You likely will not make a serious dent in the coyote population. Typically nature provides more coyotes than can support themselves adequately. Removing a small percentage allows others who might have not made it a chance to make it. Total number of surviving coyotes hardly changes.

Wholesale slalughter on a large scale by systemetic poisoning over large areas has worked in some instances to really make a dent in coyote populations. Then of course there are "blooms" of various prey species like rabits and rats and mice etc.

I would personally feel much more comfortable with a tall coyote proof fence around an area large enough to contain the play activities of the kids. Puppies and kittens would be safe in there too. I'm not trying to prevent your shooting coyotes. I am not a member of PETA. I just don't think you'll get the results you need beyond primal satisfaction of KILLING the offender.

As more and more city folk move into the country the dynamics of the interaction between coyotes and humans is changing, perhaps enough to warrant considering different solutions than were employed decades ago.

I built the safe rooms because this year could be the year or next or the next.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Ranchman]

Pat -

I agree with your point about it not affecting the long term ecological balance of the area, I think you are a bit over the top in saying that the only real benefit of eliminating the coyotes that are apparently making a habit of coming close to the home is that of satisfying "primal satisfaction."

If those particular habitual coyotes no longer exist (i.e. they’re dead), the coyotes in question can no longer attack the dog or potentially attack the kids. Doesn't prevent other coyotes from coming up in the future nor does it change the long term ecological balance of the area, but it does effectively address the immediate issue effectively.

As far as the .22 mag / .17 Hornaday Rimfire Magnum not being up to what I believe are ethical/practical typical for my experience, well, thanks, but I'll stick to my "guns" on that too. Never said you couldn't kill a coyote with either round - said that they "are not sufficient in my book."

Just because plenty of deer have been poached with .22 LR over the years doesn’t make that cartridge "appropriate" for deer hunting. I am NOT unique in this aspect - LOTS of debate on the shooting boards about the ethics/effectiveness of shooting coyotes with either of these cartridges (the .17 HMR more so than the .22 Mag, but they are both debated on a regular basis.) Could either the .22 Mag or the .17 HMR take out a coyote? Yup - no doubt. However, since pelts are not the issue here, because shot placement becomes more critical with these rounds as compared to other alternatives, and range is limited (again, as compared to others) while I would certainly take either over a sharp stick, neither would be my first choice for hunting coyotes.

[egon]

Introduce Wolves. They will definetly aid in coyote reduction. Their reintroduction to Yellowstone change the ecology of the entire area for all the animals and some of the birds.

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Ranchman, Please don't get upset with me over shades of grey. I don't advocate long range varmint shooting with a .22 (except 22's like mine, 22-250 or the 220 Swift or similar.) I thought the issue I was addressing was coyotes close enough to the house to attack a child in which case I too will "Stick to my guns." at close range my suppressed subsonic .22's are highly lethal to coyote sized animals.

If you mean ranges out at 100-200 yds then AGAIN we are in complete agreement, wrong boomstick. If you want to snipe varmints at long distances, really reach out ant touch some then the .22 rimfires, magnum included are not in the top 10 to 20 choices. I agree that the "new" .17 is not a long range round either. Didn't claim that. I claim it is lethal to coyote sized animals... at reasonable ranges.

Ethics? I have never and would never intentionally shoot to wound an animal nor would I intentionally set out with a weapon incapable of humanely disatching the intended "victim" at the ranges I expected to shoot. I didn't intend to discuss, in my previous post, any recommendatons for a planned varminting session. I just said the .22 and .17 were adequate to kill a coyote and they are. I would never advocate them as the weapon of choice for doing it at great distances where their ballistics render them marginally capable of yielding the performance needed for a reasonble expectation of a "clean" kill.

If the shooter has the opportunity to shoot a coyote at close range due to the coyote being too "familliar" with people (often a precursor to attacks) or if the shooter is clever enough to draw the coyote in to his "kill zone" then I personally wouldn't fault him for using the .22 if the shooter had the skill to reasonably expect to place the shot in a lethal manner. Otherwise, I too recommend MORE GUN. There is a big difference between long range sniping and using the gun as an alternative to "hand to hand combat."

I'm not sure what you intended with your deer poaching remarks.

I don't advocate poaching. I don't advocate deer hunting with inadequate firepower. I didn't actually advocate varminting with a .22. I think the spirit or intent of my comment was that if the coyote were there and you had a .22 and opportunity to use it efectively, it could do the job. I don't advocate a runninig shot at 200 yds but stopped or moving warily in at say 25 yds would make for a DEAD coyote with a reasonably skilled shooter. If the dog and coyote were in a fur ball then caliber isn't the issue, its shot placement.

The value of shooting a very small percentage of the coyotes within roaming range of your property is minimal beyod primal satisfaction. If on the other hand you or a neighbor feeds them on purpose or accidently (food left out for pets etc.) and they have lost their aversion to human scent and prescence then removing those individuals and changing the feeding regime are both good ideas. Just shooting a small percentage of the local coyotes at random isn't a solution, just a "feel good."

If the coyotes wore "colors" or could otherwise be identified at a distance so we'd know which ones were habitual, that would help. All coyotes are oportunistic feeders, quite clever, and learn quickly how to take advantage of an easy meal whether it is the family pet, pet food, or whatever. You need to take care that you aren't helping to create nuisance coyotes.

I personally have about the same policy for coyotes as I do for poisonous snakes. I do not intentionally seek them out to kill them. I know there are lots of them living on my property. I go out and about on my property armed. If I encounter a poisonous snake, I dispatch it as humanely and quickly as I can. I cary a magazine loaded with snake shot. If I'n not close enough for a clean kill then the snake isn't a danger to me. I'm not the world's best off hand pistol shot. If the coyote is too far for a good shot then he isn't a threat to me. So far I have never shot at one while just out and about on my property. If I suffered predation of any of my animals then I'd probably change policy accordingly. If any actually threatened a human on my property I'd likely change policy.

If I kept a dog that was incapable of defending itself in an environment where that was entirely likely to be required then I would consider myself at fault, not the coyote. Coyotes are natural preditors. They eat things to live. They prefer easy kills. It is altogether reasonable to expect that if we offer them an easy hot meal on 4 legs that they will take it. To blame that on the coyote is just wrong headed. We need to protect ourselves, our children and fat stupid pets from harm if we care. Killing every conceivable threat isn't reasonable. Taking prudent measures to protect our kids and pets can include coyote proof fences as well as removing "habituated" animals who frequently approach too close.

Armadillos carry leprosy. It is endemic in their population. Kill the armadillos.

Mosquitos can carry a number of diseases, and do. Not only West Nile Virus. Killing a couple mosquitos that happen to land in plain sight on your arm or hover by your ear will not solve the problem. Reasonable responses include controlliing their access to breeding environments. Wholesale trapping with "mosquito magnet" type devices, installing a number of bat boxes to attract a very significant natural predator, and use a good repellant (permethrin and time release microsphere encapsulated DEET.)

Well, ranchman, I don't think we are realy that far apart in our thinking, more a matter of degree than diametric opposition.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Ranchman]

Pat-

<font color="blue">I thought the issue I was addressing was coyotes close enough to the house to attack a child in which case I too will "Stick to my guns." </font color>

.22 mag / .17 HMR for "close quarters combat." Let's see - based on our little scenario we’ve created my pet or my child is being attacked (or under immediate threat of being attacked) by a coyote at close range and I could use (a) a .17 HMR, (b) a .22 Mag, or (c) a .223 (with ~4X the muzzle energy.) Hmmm, I love my pets and my kids, but gosh dern it, that little 'ol .17 will work under the "right" circumstances. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Uhhhh, no thanks - hand me the AR.

<font color="blue">I'm not sure what you intended with your deer poaching remarks. </font color>

My point was that the .22LR is a ballistically inappropriate cartridge to use for deer hunting although it has been proven to be "effective" at killing deer under the "right" circumstances. Poaching/illegal hunting is where this data comes from. (it is illegal to hunt deer in Texas with a rimfire no matter what.) I see a parallel with your apparent suggestion that the .17 HMR or .22 Mag are "effective" at killing coyotes under the "right" circumstances even though in my (and many others) estimation they are not ballistically appropriate for such a hunt. (Again, an often debated topic on the gun boards.) Funny - Can't ever recall anyone claiming that .223 wasn't "enough gun" for a coyote on those same boards.

There is another aspect about choosing the .17 HMR or .22 Mag over the .223 that makes it even more "inappropriate" in my estimation. Sure, drawing them in to &lt;75 yards to "ensure" (again, debatable) a relatively effective shot with one of those two cartridges might be fun. But we aren't hunting for fun here, we're hunting to eliminate habitual predators that are going after our pets and that are a potential danger to our children. The .223 will allow you to "reach out and touch" those habitual coyotes much further out than either the .17 HMR or .22 Mag, and if we are making a specific effort to eliminate those particular coyotes, they may be more hesitant to come in close if they suspect they are being hunted.

<font color="blue">I think the spirit or intent of my comment was that if the coyote were there and you had a .22 and opportunity to use it efectively, it could do the job. </font color>

What I saw was someone (myself) recommending .223 (or higher energy cartridge) for effectively hunting coyotes and that .17 HMR / .22 Mag were not appropriate for ethical hunting or a "self defense" situation against them. On the flip side I saw someone else (you) saying that essentially the .17 HMR / .22 Mag are indeed appropriate and up to the task for hunting coyotes. It may not have been, but it sure sounded like advocation to me.

<font color="blue">To blame that on the coyote is just wrong headed. We need to protect ourselves, our children and fat stupid pets from harm if we care. Killing every conceivable threat isn't reasonable. </font color>

Who's blaming the coyote? Who advocated killing every conceivable threat? All I ever advocated was the effective and quick elimination of the specific habitual coyotes that are currently visiting the house with enough firepower to ensure an ethical and quick kill. I also stated that this would eliminate the immediate problem but would not solve it long term AND that you were over the top when it came to claiming that a position such as mine was just some type of bloodlust.

<font color="blue">Well, ranchman, I don't think we are realy that far apart in our thinking, more a matter of degree than diametric opposition. </font color>

Overall, I would agree - with one major difference. When it comes to shooting a predator that can maim or even kill my pets or children, I want to make sure I have much more energy, range, and knockdown power than you do. While I'm considered a "good shot," when it comes to the safety of my children I want additional ballistic advantage in my corner. Saying to yourself, "Well, maybe something instead of the .17HMR would work better" after Fido is dead or, heaven forbid, Junior is mauled, is worthless in my book.

[Stoneheartfarm]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone nearby you raised and released Pheasants? We have a neighbor that does that every few years, and our field fills with coyotes until all the birds are gone.

Steve

[theboman]

A 30.06 will mean the end to a coyote at 200 yards. It'll do the trick at 35 yards too. You can't have too much when dispatching a varmit.
A 12 guage with 00 buckshot at 30 yards on a full choke will also handle a coyote.

A farmer friend has goats. He just got a donkey to turn loose with the herd of goats. A coyote or dog won't mess much a donkey. They pack a deadly kick...

[opie744]

We do have several Pheasants in the area. Not sure if they were raised and let loose, but we did notice a few in the spring.

[Pat]

Well, I guess in the "more is better" approach maybe we should consider a semi-auto .50 BMG.

Oh by the way, I don't recall saying that any .22 rinfire magnum or otherwise or .17 would be my first choice, just that they could do the job at close ranges. I do believe I mentioned my 22-250. I really don't care what any boards may say, my 22-250 will take out a coyote most effectively. I'm still not entirely sure why we are discussing deer hunting or poaching but I would never recommend deer hunting with a 22-250, although it could kill a deer or elk or griz or velociraptor (under the right circumstances.)

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]