Two coyotes attacked my fat border collie tonight. Advice please!

[Ranchman]

<font color="blue">Well, I guess in the "more is better" approach maybe we should consider a semi-auto .50 BMG. </font color>

Comparing a .223 to a .50BMG. Now you're just being silly and going off the deep end. That's like saying if someone recommends a .45ACP or .40S&amp;W for a self defense carry gun over a .25ACP they are being unreasonable and since "more is better," they should be recommending something like a .454 Casull. Come on Pat....


<font color="blue">I really don't care what any boards may say, my 22-250 will take out a coyote most effectively. </font color>

Who said otherwise? I said there is plenty of debate about the .17HMR / .22Mag being adequate for coyotes...


<font color="blue"> I'm still not entirely sure why we are discussing deer hunting or poaching </font color>

You're being purposefully difficult. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

(1) I **NEVER** said you, I, or ANYONE ELSE ON THIS BOARD advocated illegal hunting/poaching.

(2) Egon essentially made the same point I did - that a comparatively ballistically weak cartridge (i.e. .22LR) can kill. The only addition I made to his point was that just because you can kill something with a ballistically inferior cartridge doesn't mean you should.

Poaching/Illegal hunting IS SIMPLY AN EXAMPLE where the .22LR (e.g. comparatively weak cartridge ballistically speaking) has been proven to kill game for which any reasonable person (and in this case, the State of Texas as well) would say it is totally inadequate.

Can a .22LR kill a deer: <font color="green"> YES. </font color>
Should you use a .22LR to kill a deer (even if it was legal): <font color="red">NO. </font color>

Cana .17HMR/.22Mag kill a coyte: <font color="green">YES. </font color>
Should you use a .17HMR/.22Mag to kill a coyote (especially under the circumstances outlined in this thread): <font color="red">NO. </font color>

Don't think I can make my point any more clear or draw a more obvious parallel than that.

[Pat]

I think I understand some of the part Egon explained. Maybe you could give me a little more detail regarding the .223.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Ranchman]

.223 - w/ 55 gr. bullet: ~ 3,100 fps, ~1,200 ft/lbs (muz)

.22-250 - w/ 55 gr. bullet: ~ 3,600 fps, ~1,600 ft/lbs (muz)

[egon]

Hey; My name was mentioned?

In my life I have shot at two coyotes. Two shots only. One at 75 yards. The other at 50 yards. Both times a Whiz-Bang .22 long rifle was used. Both coyotes died on the scene.

At no time did I think I was undergunned.

My father had a 25/35 winchester that was used to shoot moose. Clearly a very underpowered rifle by todays standards. If I recall correctely it brought down all the Moose it was aimed at plus a few elk. He later upgraded to a sporterized .303 army rifle.

Egon

[Pat]

Ranchman, I shot very little factory ammo. My most accurate handloads chrono consistently at just a hair over 4000fps with 52 grain hollow points. This is more energy than your example.

I didn't do nearly as much with 55gr but I did work up a load that was good enough for "large targets" that was still better than factory but I don't recall the velocity. I think it was only a hundred or two faster than factory. It too was a bit more energy than your example but not enough to shout about.

I zero at 200yds and have less than 3/4 inch rise at 100yds but the "light" hollowpoint is down about 4 1/2 in at 300 yds. Makes for a challenge on small targets at ranges varying between 250-300 yds without using a LASER ranger. Of course large standing still, coyote sized, targets aren't a problem.

I recommend the 22-250 for its flat trajectory due to high velocity for a given projectile weight. It is NOT good for shooting through weeds, grass, leaves, or the like. You need an unobstructed shot. A good alternative is a 220 swift but ammo is not universally available. For better brush penetration, you just about have to move up to at least a .243 or so. Color me old fashioned but I like the 25-06.

I have a report from a reliable source (friend) who saw a young African lion attacking a steer. Folks "DUMP" every other unwanted pet out here from kittens to emus, why not an exotic like a lion? Now what sort of "varmnt" gun is needed, a double riflle in nitro express?

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Ranchman]

Egon -

<font color="blue">At no time did I think I was undergunned. </font color>

I thought your were making a good point....until you clarified it.

If a .22LR is all you have, it is certainly better than nothing, but if you are advocating actively hunting a coyote with a .22LR, then that's just plain wrong. You’re telling me that if your child is under imminent threat of attack by a coyote, you’d CHOOSE to defend their well being with a .22LR because you never felt "undergunned" using one against a coyote in the past? Risking the life and limb of your child to prove some machismo point about how "small" a cartridge you can kill a coyote with…. Ugh…..


Pat -

<font color="blue">My most accurate handloads chrono consistently at just a hair over 4000fps with 52 grain hollow points. This is more energy than your example. </font color>

There are 77 maximum loads for the .22-250 as found in my most recent handload manual. I chose one with a popular weight bullet (in both the .223 and the .22-250) simply to give a comparative "apples to apples" example. I didn't question your request for .223 info outright, although it seems odd since you should have access to the same info in your load books that I do.

While there are certainly other variables to consider (case wall thickness, etc.), if you are indeed shooting over 4000 fps for a 52 gr bullet in your .22-250, you should make sure you are not above any of the maximum loads for powder as that velocity is well above what I can find in any of my load books (maximum I can find is 3841 from a 1987 Speer Manual). I follow the ammo mfgs. advise and stay at or below their maximum powder charges in all of my loads. If you’re doing the same and still getting those velocities, that’s one thing. If you’re not, well, it’s your risk to take.


<font color="blue">I have a report from a reliable source (friend) who saw a young African lion attacking a steer. Folks "DUMP" every other unwanted pet out here from kittens to emus, why not an exotic like a lion? </font color>

While certainly possible, I find that a highly unlikely. Are you sure your friend didn’t see a mountain lion? They are certainly present in OK and could be confused for a "young" African lion without the mane.

<font color="blue">Now what sort of "varmnt" gun is needed, a double riflle in nitro express? </font color>

As far as defending myself or my child against an African lion - I don’t have anything in Nitro Express. If one wandered up and were trying to make lunch out of Fido or Jr., you’re dern tootin’ I’d choose the biggest thing I have and certainly wouldn’t choose a .17HMR or .22Mag. unless those were the only guns/cartridges I had at my disposal.

Suggesting that anyone who chooses a "reasonable" cartridge (such as .223) to kill a coyote that is attacking their child is somehow "overgunned" or that such an individual is trying to play "Rambo" is wrong - and missing the point. We’re talking about defending the health and well being of CHILDREN here folks. I find all this bravado regarding "getting away" with using a "small" cartridge so one could "brag" about how small a gun one used to stop an animal who is potentially HARMING THEIR CHILD disturbing at best.

I never suggested using something ridiculous like a .50 BMG for hunting coyote, yet I was stereotyped as being some type of "ballistic nut" for suggesting a cartridge (.223) that is commonly used for hunting them and generally agreed on at large as having "adequate" energy, range, and knockdown power to ensure a humane and "quick" kill. Like it or not, there is plenty of debate regarding the "effectiveness" of the .17HMR/.22Mag for coyotes. (And not just from me.) This same debate doesn't exist with the .223.

I’ve offered my opinion on what I feel would be an appropriate cartridge based on my experience. Some would choose something larger based on the seriousness of the situation (imminent attack upon a child) - some would choose smaller. So be it. You defend your family and your pets as you see fit and I will do the same. Hopefully if any child is unlucky enough to be under such an attack and you are the only one there to defend them, they will be lucky enough to survive unscarred and you can tout your marksmanship ability and prowess with a cartridge such as the .17HMR/.22Mag/.22LR. Me? I'm more worried about the safety of the child than my own vanity concerning hunting prowess - but that's just me.

[opie744]

Thanks for all of the opinions. My husband and I stand that we are humans w/ basic instincts, threaten me or my family or my property, you must go. If its another person, we'll ask you to leave, if its a critter that talking to just won't work, we'll do what we have to do.
When I made this post, my husband and I knew HOW we were going to take care of things, like most farmers before us, by taking them out. He hadn't hunted coyotes before and was hoping for good tips or advice. Because advice from real-life people we find very reliable. For those of you that did thanks, and for anymore that come, thank you also.
I understand everyone has a different point of view, I'll respect yours if you repect ours.

[egon]

Darned if I can remember about points Ranchman, think they were solid point not hollow but so far it's been two shots two coyotes. Guess I'm still at 100 % accuracy.

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Ranchman, I'm sorry you are taking all this OVER SERIOUSLY and feel the need to cary it to such lengths. Really, I don't think Egon or I were advocating that a .22 rimfire or a .17 was the weapon of choice for someone intentionally hunting coyote. We aren't trying to make you seem ridiculous or extreme for making positive remarks regarding a .223 for that purpose.

I'm sure if you take a deep breath and think about it unemotionally for a moment you will reconsider any remarks you have made that insinuate either of us have a callous disregard for child safety are excessive.

I confess that your response(s) can be a source of humor. I, for one, did try to inject some slight degree of humor into the exchange but it didn't seem to "take."

Ballistic nut? Hardly. I don't see where you got the idea that either of us thought ill of you prior to the following comments.

I don't think the following comment of yours is fair and reasonable based on what either of us said and the context in which it was said.

"I find all this bravado regarding "getting away" with using a "small" cartridge so one could "brag" about how small a gun one used to stop an animal who is potentially HARMING THEIR CHILD disturbing at best."

Likewise this quote:

"Hopefully if any child is unlucky enough to be under such an attack and you are the only one there to defend them, they will be lucky enough to survive unscarred and you can tout your marksmanship ability and prowess with a cartridge such as the .17HMR/.22Mag/.22LR. Me? I'm more worried about the safety of the child than my own vanity concerning hunting prowess - but that's just me."

Ahh what a "good job", all the requisite elements, righteous indignation, selflessness, child welfare...

I'm sorry but most of your protestations are excessive and many are countering statements that didn't REALLY say what you claim.

No one has made a pitch for purposely endangering any child or advocating any action that is patently unsafe. No one has come close to trying to secure "bragging" rights for saving a child by a thin margin of ballistic sufficiency through the application of their superhuman marksmanship directed by steady nerves in a time of peril. Geesh!

The way I remember it a couple comments were made regarding the fact that a .22 rimfine will kill a coyote and SHAZAM!!! we are off to the races.

I do not have any problem with your basic thesis. You are RIGHT. I know that, Egon knows that, EVERYONE knows that. There really isn't any NEED to go to great lengths to DEFEND yourself as you aren't being attacked. I confess again to attempting to inject a bit of humor, here and there, such as the double rifle in nitro express.

I felt as you did regarding the African lion but the responsible party is not subject to hysteria, has seen several examples of mountain lions AND African lions, claims to know the difference, and insists it was an African lion. There are a lot of exotic pet owners, many have BIG CATS. Folks do release "inconvenient" animals. Also there are "wild animal" parks near here from which such a beast could escape as well.

I have previously been accused of trying to put out a fire by dousing it with gasoline but I hope this isn't one of those times.

By the way, did I mention that I think you cold kill a coyote with a slingshot?


[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[LazyJ_Arabians]

Not that I'd give a flip if a coyote ever became a nuisance on my property, but Arkansas has a six month season on coyotes with required hunting license and daily limit 2. Back when I occasionally went after them for sport you had to use 22 rim but now they allow up to 30 cal.

Even at our hunting camp which is 14 miles from the nearest electricity, I haven't seen a coyote in 10 years. Not sure why surrounding states have so many and we have so few. Plenty of Tyson chickens for them to eat and no wolves or mt lions to eat them. Maybe coyotes are Republicans?