Water softener, pressure tank, and pump in garage?

[Pat]

I previously missed the comment about electric motors in the garage. Unless your appliances are truly ancient the motors are sealed units and are induction motors anyway with no brushes and comutator to spark. The thermostat on a frige or freezer can spark but I don't know if they are selaed away or exposed to potentially explosive vapors on your models.

Not that I recommend getting one but for general interest there are instruments with sensors that take a reading on the atmosphere and test it for combustibility...sort of a fuel-air ratio thingy. Some have setable alarms for the level you want to have it trip off, start a ventilation fan, or whatever.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[cwarrix]

Well, wouldn't you know it, as soon as I said I would get back to it when the weather warmed up... the pump quit working! I thought it might be going bad because it was making some strange sounds once in a while. I got in the crawl space and took a look around, what a mess, I didn't even try to fix it, I started my project Saturday afternoon.

I started by going to Lowes to get what I thought was everything. This was the first of about 10 trips so far! I then tore out the laundry room floor to gain easy access to the old pump, pressure tank, and supply lines to the house. Drained the hot water tank, threw it out into the back yard along with the old pump... my wife loved that. We then cut all the old pipes that went through the floor and disgarded them as well. We also removed the water softener as well. Nothing left in the laundry room but a hole in the floor and a bunch of dust [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Now the fun begins. We started arranging everything on the other side of the wall in the garage. I drilled access holes to run the pipes where I thought we would run them and placed everything where it was going to go. I built a wood frame to sit the pump on, so the pressure tank could sit under it, bolted the pump down with lag bolts with a piece of rubber mat in between to reduce vibration and sound. so far so good. I used CPVC pipe to connect the pump to the tank and converted to copper to connect to the main supply that goes to the water softener. Powered it up to see if we could pressurize the system, it leaked from 4 or five different places. I worked on this set up for the better part of a day before I finally called the pumo company to see if I was doing something wrong. They told me to buy a different model made specifically for shallow wells so i would not need the ejector on the convertable pump. The ejector was the biggest pain to try to get the leaking stopped. So off to Lowes to trade pumps. Got the new one, had to reroute pipes to fit since the inlet and outlet were in different locations. Fired it up, still leaked from the intake, where a threaded 1 1/4 PVC pipe was connected. I used thread tape, etc. but could never get it to stop leaking. As soon as the pump would stop it would leak. I replaced the PVC fitting, tried it reallly tight, not so tight, etc. no luck. Then it started leaking around the outlet tee. By this time I was fed up. That was last night. This morning I went to another store and purchased a new flowTec (spelling) pump and pressure tank. The pump is 1/2 HP which is what I had before, but the tank is a bit larger at 36 gallons. I like the new tank because it already has a mounting bracket for the pump, so now I can throw the wood frame away, or burn it for heat, the garage is cold to work in!! We had to once again completely reroute all the pipes to fit the new pump, but finally got the system pressurized with no leaks so far on the first try! All I can say is I did everything the same way all three times. I don't think I got any better at it, but for some reason the new, different brand pump works MUCH better. The firs two pumps were all cast iron or something like that. The new one is some kind of hard plastic, or composite material that just seemed a whole lot easier to work with.

Tomorrow I will finish plumbing the HWT and connect the hot and cold pipes to the house and check for leaks again. Maybe we can start taking showers at home again, instead of the YMCA and my inlaws house.

[cwarrix]

I forgot, I had one question for anyone who might know. When I got the system pressurized, still not connect to the hous plumbing. I just had a garden hose connected to a valve on the bottom of the pressure tank. When I fire up the pump, the pressure reads between 25 to 30 psi. Does that seem normal? I wasn't sure if was or not and was wondering if I should have stepped up to a 3/4 HP pump. The pump and pressure tank are both configured to start and atop at 30/50 psi. It takes about (counting in my head, no watch) two minutes for the pump to refill the tank once it starts back up and I close the valve. I figured that was a pretty good time, since I was told you don't want the pump to run for a lot of short periods. Anyway, I really don't know what 25 psi means as far as pressure in the house goes. Is that enough for two showers at the same time?

Thanks for the help!

[Pat]

cwarrix, Good on ya, mate! Hang in there like a bulldog till you "get 'er done!"

Been there, done that, got the scars, physical and emotional to show for it. I have relocated DHW tanks from within kitchens to outside in two previous houses. So far the funniest happening was when a buddy drilled a pilot/exploratory hole from under the house up into the kitchen closet were the dishwasher was and drilled a hole in the botom of the dishwasher.

By the way... A friend is coming over today to help me plumb in a hot water recirc pump under my mom's house. Yesterday I went to Lowe's and bought E V E R Y T H I N G we could possibly need for the job...

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Pat]

cwarrix, Lets see if I got this straight... a 36 gal tank pumping up to 25-30 lbs in about 2 min. Was that starting from empty? If yes, then that is a good flow/production rate. Does it then shut off? If yes, then the pressure switch seems to need adjusting as it shouldn't shut off till it gets to about 50lbs. If you bleed off water from the tank (throuh the garden hose?) the switch should start the pump when the pressure falls to about 30 lb. IF you then stop draining water the pump should run till the pressure rises to about 50 lbs.

I'd confirm the above and or adjust the switch till it worked correctlybefore considering whether it will handle two showers simulltaneously. After things are adjusted and working right (on at 30 off at 50) then use the hose to fill a a couple 5 gal buckets. What you want to know is how much flow you can sustain withougt dropping below 30 PSI. You adjust the hose nozzle or valve so that with the pump running the pressure stays at about 30 PSI. You now want to time how long it takes to fill an empty bucket. This will give you your gal per min at the low pressure setting. Your system will provide up to this this number of gal per min in operation.

If you have low flow shower nozzles (as mandated for new construction and as now sold new) I think they are 1.7 gal/min (you can check that) so two showers will work if you can supply at least 3.4 gal per min without dropping pressure under the low pressure setting (30PSI.) Likewise you can add up the flow rates for other appliances and fixtures and get a good approximation of what all will successfully work at the same time.

I did not allow for line losses and don't know the size, length, or condition of your water lines. If they are small diameter, quite long, lots of elbows, plugged with debris, etcl then your performance will be less than estimated. Note that if you actually use less water than the amount reguired in the test to reduce the pressure to 30 PSI then the pressure will rise and overcome (at least partially) some of the line losses. It is still a good approximation and only takes a few minutes to do the testing. They you know the reality of your installation and whether or not you have enough performance.

In cases like these I prefer to be an empericist. Rather than speculate on the number of angles dancing on the head of a pin, get a magnifying glass and count them!

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[cwarrix]

Thanks Pat! You made it simple for me. I thought there was going to be some long process to figure out if I was going to have enough pressure. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

The 1/2 HP pump was giving me about 6GPM almost. I swapped it for the 3/4 HP which fortunately had the same footprint, so no rework on the PVC! The motor was just a little longer. I did have a couple of small leaks. One was where the PVC threaded fitting goes into the pump from the well. I have a threaded fitting coming out of the pump into an elbow and then a union. I must have had that thing off and on 100 times, glad the union was there. I was using thread tape. Finally a guy at Home Depot suggested I try a thread paste, don't have the name handy, but it worked great the first time, leak gone! The other leak was on the copper supply line going into the house, on the cold side. There must have been a little water in the line that ran back to where a soldered the joint and caused it to leak like crazy. I couldn't heat it up enough to get the fitting loose, so I cut it and used a cool little liquid filled "gel" ball to plug the pipe until I got a coupler soldered in. They look like the bubble bath balls that my wife and daughter use, probably would have worked just as well. You push them about 4-6 inches back in the pipe, then solder, when the water comes on, they melt away. Or you can heat that part of the pipe to melt them, cool stuff! A little pricey though, pack of six was six bucks. But, my leak is gone and I didn't have to call a plumber, money well spent.

So, leaks fixed, water is back on, new hot water tank, pressure tank, and pump. Everything is out of the laundry room and in the garage as planned. Since the pump is the only thing that may spark, it is about 36 inches off the ground mounted on the pressure tank.

Next step is to enclose the whole thing, with some sort of access to change the water filter and add salt. And of course insulate it as much as possible. Then I can run a new dryer duct (electric dryer) to the outside (decide not to vent into garage) and replace the floor in the laundry room. After that, most of what I need to do in the laundry room is easy stuff [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Chuck

[Pat]

Chuck, Way to go... Sounds like you got it squared away. How many gal/min are you getting without going under the low pressure setting?

Those balls for holding back the water sond pretty neat... for the folks making them at those prices. What you can do is take a slice of fresh bread (white bread works best) and eat the crust (waste not want not) then roll up a ball or cylinder of the goey doughey bread and force it up into the pipe witrh a dowl or a pencil or whatever to form a plug to hold back the drip so you can solder. After the joint is made you take the strainer/aereator off the nearest faucet of the same type (hot-cold) that is downstream and turn it on for a while. The bread will soften and disintegrate and be expelled. You can get two plugs from a single slice and unless you are paying a lot more for plain bread then we are a slice is way cheaper than those special balls and don't require a special trip to buy.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[cwarrix]

Hi Pat, getting about 8 gpm at 28 - 30 psi now. Not sure exactly what it was with the original pump, but I have not noticed a drop in pressure anywhere in the house. If anything, I think we have a little higher pressure now. We had two showers running this morning, no complaints! I think we could have three showers running Sunday morning. That will be the real test!

I tried the bread trick before and it worked great, but this time it didn't work for me. I think it may have been because the water was coming from a different source than what I had blocked. After so many hours of working and only a small little leak between me and success, I was more than willing to spend the five or six bucks to by the magic balls [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

I'm going to start redoing the laundry room tomorrow morning. Hopefully the plumbing is done. Although my wife did mention she would like a laundry tub / sink in the laundry room [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

Chuck

[Pat]

Chuck, You are not only winning but pulling way ahead but look out for the acretion of dutines that result fron ill defined requiremnts levied in the form of an open ended "honey do!"

Depending on your shower heads you may use over 4 gal per minute. "Standard" low flow heads are around 2.5 gal per min and lower ones are available. The aereator type give a good "feel" with less water. The shower massage type typically don't mix in air but subsitiute the "massage" effect for high volume consumption. Careful selection will give a good "feel" in the shower while saving lots of water and energy to heat it. Saves $ too, of course.

From the performance data you report, your system will support three simultaneous showers if the heads use no more than 2.7 gal per min (a common and reasonable flow rate but more than required if you get a really good low flow nozzle) - A N D - no other water is turned on, toilets flushed, or whatever.

I've had the bread trick fail miserably when I had a water meter that didn't quite shut completely off and the drip rate exceeded the capacity of two propane torches. I bought a brass compression fitting that required no heat. If that hadn't beed available and the balls were, I would have no doubt sprung for them.

After two days of crawling around under my mom's house the hot water recirc pump is installed and operating. Ahh luxury... Instead of waiting FOREVER to get hot water to the end of the house with the two master suites, you give the timer switch a twist and shortly there is hot water available. (There are two timer switches in parallel, one in each private bath.) You still have to purge cold water from a few feet of pipe but nothing like the 60-70 ft run before. I figure moderately heavy use of the pump would add less than $1.50 per- Y E A R - to the electric consumption so expect it to be closer to $1.00. I think this is way better than a second DHW tank and its standby losses or a high cost "Instant" water heater.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[cwarrix]

Hi Pat! I'll no doubt be back at my second home (Lowes) tomorrow for all the stuff I thought I got today but didn't [img]/forums/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img] I'll check out the shower heads, all of ours could stand to be replaced anyway. I noticed the shower in the master bath has a lot more pressure than it used to, almost uncomfortable, I could definately reduce the pressure there to save a little water and $$.

Got the sub-floor in the laundry room done today. Also built a platform for the washer and dryer to sit on. They are the front load type, when done they will be a total of 23" off the the floor. That way you can walk right up and load / unload without bending! I hope to finish the floor tomorrow, laminate snap together stuff from Armstrong that looks like ceramic tile. Should be a snap [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Should go down pretty fast in this small 8 x 9 room. It sure seems a lot bigger though now that the water softener and how water tank are out of there.

The recirc pump you mentioned sounds pretty cool, and definately an energy efficient little guy at a buck or two a year! I know how you feel about crawling around under the house. I feel like I have been in the crawl space for days! And I'm not as young (or as small) as I used to be [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

I had at least four people ask me and / or my son why we didn't just call a plumber to do all the work. I was talking to my son about it (he's 18 now) and I was amazed that he thought the idea of paying someone else to do something we could do ourselves was crazy. He went on to say how much more he appreciates the things he never used to even think about, like running water, and all of the work and effort that went into making it work. Pretty mature thinking for an 18 year old [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] I guess it was worth having no running water for four or five days. Sounds like he learned a lot, and so did I.

Chuck