Fuel Type - Secondary Systems

[SLOBuds]

I'm building a new house in the country. Right now we only have electricity on the site.

The new house will have solar equipment for photovoltaics and for hot water heating: photovoltaics is for offsetting part of the electricity costs; hot water heating is for DHW, radiant floor heat, and partial heating of the hot tub.

A secondary water heating system will also be installed, such as a high-efficiency boiler. What fuel source should I use for this secondary heating?

Here are some factors:

I am told that using electricity is prohibatively expensive and should be ruled out as long as ANY other fuel source is available. Someone can convince me otherwise.

GeoThermal is ruled out of the question because of its expense.

Wood boilers are ruled out because of the effort and strict EPA rules here in California.

I will have diesel fuel on the site to use with my tractor. Diesel will be available in any case.

If I find out that propane is the best fuel source, I will then also use propane for my stove - I prefer cooking with gas rather than cooking with electricity.

The new house will be in California. I don't think that I have any other options except for the ones listed. I am not aware the coal, as an example, is availabe here or cost effective.

I am conflicted with using either propane or diesel - considering that these are non-renewal and will probably dramatically increase in price over time.

What do you think?

Thanks,
Martin Petersen

[Tevi]

I would look at the structure itself first.If you build with a high effeciency SIP then your heat and cooling demands would be greatly reduced.

[Chillimau]

Diesel/Fuel oil has more BTUs per gallon than Propane. I would look at it from a cost/BTU perspective for fuel, equipment and maintenence.

Any ideas on how much the secondary system will be needed? If seldom then elec. may not be so bad given how cheap the equipment is.

Diesel will require annual maintenence. Can you do the maintenence or will you need to hire someone. Can you even find someone to do the maintenence and set-up? Diesel/Fuel Oil is not popular in my part of the world.

Another subject: any decisions on windows?

Gary

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Dear Slow, If it were me I would use propane, no question about it. Expect the per/BTU cost to track about even for Diesel vs LPG, so the only other cost issue is the storage. Large propane tanks are costly, but in CA, they may not have to have the double-wall setup that legal Diesel would require. BY FAR the biggest problem with Diesel is long term storage. About four years ago, IBM found themselves with half a million gallons of Diesel left over from the Y2K scare, and it had already begun to jell. Propane can stay in storage for years. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[SLOBuds]

OK Gary, good point about how much secondary I actually need. And I do think that maintenance will be a cost factor to consider (thinking that propane is clean and maybe requires less maintenance).

I am leaning towards Loewen windows, which appear to be a Marvin equivalent in quality at a lower price. Neither of these 2 are 'cheap' windows by any means. And I do not know exactly what the cost differential is right now. That's the next step.

Funny thing is that when I look at both of their performance charts, assuming that I'm reading the darn things correctly, it looks like the Loewens have better performance than the Marvins.

There are good and bad aspects about the performance charts. The good thing is that all of the higher-end manufacturers use the same testing standards. So in my case, both Marvin and Loewen reported test results through the National Fenestration Rating Council. The bad thing is that all of these upper-end windows have SCADS of options.

I am only looking for casement, awning, and picture windows. I took a casement window of approximately the same size for both manufacturers and compared the test results.

There are very subtle differences between the warranties of both the products. I would have to say in my mind that they are the same. 10 years on the entire window, and 20 years on the glass. You need to read that for yourself though.

There is a large retail house in Los Angeles that I visited to see both of the windows in the same place. The sales guy was much more promotive of the Marvin line. And I could see some advantages and a few features that may be considered as upscale to Loewen.

On the other hand, the Loewen standard wood is Fir whereas Marvin is Pine. The Loewen provides 10 standard colors for its clad wherease Marvin provides 6. And, as I mentioned, the test numbers for Loewen look better.

Now I'll try to get some price data. It is going to be VERY difficult to compare apples to apples. I am simply going to take one window, the casement, and try to equip them in a simlar fasion. It's one of those deals where stuff that is standard on one is extra cost on the other. But it should be possible. I just want the cheapest EnergyStar-rated casement, using all standard options.

Thanks for your feedback on the fuels.

[Pat]

Uh, wait a minute man... we glossed over electric heat pretty quickly. There are commercial off the shelf DHW heaters that use small heat pumps to heat the water. These are probably about 400% efficient compared to resistance heat of typical electric water heater. If your electricity were 1/4 of its current cost would you consider an electric water heater? If yes then consider a heatpump water heater. Geothermal heatpumps ARE competitive in some situations for heating swimming pools so I think I would get below the surface and not take just anyone's word for it that it can't be cost competitive.

If you integrate your water heating needs (possibly adding a flat plate heat exchanger) you might get enough economy of scale to make a geo unit competitive. Diesel... I have been on boats with diesel heated cookstoves and diesel cabin heaters and I have a new in the box diesel cabin heater that has never been fired up in 15 years.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[SLOBuds]

Yea, well, I don't know Pat. George W built a 2500 sq ft office building out there in Texas. 6 wells at 300 ft each. I'm not positive what that would cost me out in little Huasna Valley, but I'd guess it to be several pretty pennies. And there are probably 2 people in all of California that know how to install geothermal.

With each day that gasoline prices soar further and further through the stratusphere, Susan and I become more convinced that conservation and renewable sources are high on the priorities. I think we will bump up the spend on solar.

As the price of non-renewable fuels increase, and the price of other energy forms increase, there will probably be shifting demand (even here in California) towards added conservation measures and renewable sources. And efficient sources. Maybe we will go from 2 geothermal distributors up to 5!

I can indeed run the numbers for geothermal. But I am not optimistic as to where that will go.

Your 2nd point: efficient electric heating. Sure. I'm game. I'd love to get by with an electric house (paid for by my own photovoltaics). Except for the small issue that I prefer gas cooking to electric cooking, it's probably better to have fewer fuel types as opposed to more fuel types.

Give me the name of a product that comes to mind. Most of the high-efficiency boilers do not come in electric models.

By the way, in my case there are no 'current costs.' This is new construction with nothing to compare with except the slide rule.

What's your opinion of the Thermomax -type products? Aside from their lack of availability? Looks like high output from even marginal solar availability.

Thanks for the input.

[RaT]

SLOBuds, I have no idea where you live but I recently visited a window store out here in California that was recommended to me. They carry just about every major brand of window and some not so major brands. Expecting to get the same old stuff that appears at home shows, I was absoulutely amazed at the knowledge of the fellow that helped me. He was unquestionably the god of windows and knew his stuff so well. He was also very excited about his work.
Your comment about geothermal and maybe two folks from California knowing how to install it. You would be suprised at the folks that do some things around here that are unreal. I guess when you have the money, you can experiment. I have to rely on second hand knowledge and decipher it. I looked at some windows from Marvin called Integrity. If you have not they are worth a look. Also, Eagle with 50 aluminum clad window colors to choose from. A double hung Marvin 3o5o is about $270 with grids and low E glass. Plenty of high quality vinyl windows, but the color I need is not there. There is a company, ASCO I think it is that now has the ability to paint vinyl, it does void the warranty but I am just not super crazy about any vinyl I have seen yet.

[Chillimau]

RaT,

Is that $270 Marvin one of the Integrity Windows?

Gary

[jimbrown]

I would just go propane. You are already going to have a tank for the stove. It is clean, very low maintenance and the units are low cost. As this is a backup system it will see little loss. I have a neighbor with the soloar hot water and he only uses his backup system 2 to 3 weeks a year.