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Thread: Standby generators

  1. #1
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    Standby generators

    In rural areas many folks need stand by generators to avoid the loss of their expensive freezeer and refrigerator contents during all too frequent electrical outages. Some think their A/C is also a critical circuit others consider their keg or TV or whatever. Anyway...

    Some friends a few miles away were using their standby generator to maintain "critical circuits", i.e. their frige, freezer, A/C and master suite. After the power was restored none of the circuits that had been on the generator were powered up, just the rest of the house. I got a call because it was Fri afternoon and had had electricians working at the new house earlier in the day. NO luck they were gone so I volunteered to take a VOM over and figure it out. They have a load transfer "box" on the wall next to their breaker box. It is several pairs of breakers with a mechanical interlock that prevents cross connecting the generator to the grid side.

    What looks to be the SWITCH to go between commercial power and generator is actually just a piece of metal with "fingers" that prevents you from positioning the breakers such that you put generator power back out to the line. This is NOT permitted by code/law because you could electrocute a lineman working to clear the outage.

    All the breakers in his regular box had 120 VAC on their output although I found one wire not screwed down, just accidently making contact where it was supposed to and several not very tight. It is a new house and apparently the electrician was a tad lazy. I had never seen one of those switching panels just like this for going between generator and commercial power so I didn't recognize the problem at first. The interlock that looks to be the transfer switch but isn't only prevents you from cross connecting power sources it DOES NOT ensure that the breakers are in the RIGHT positions. He had to turn off 6 breakers to throw the interlock to enable him to turn on the 6 matching breakers to hook up the generator. To place the interlock back in NORMAL position he had to open the 6 breakers on the generator side but he forgot and was not forced to close the 6 breakers on the grid side. VOILA, a small cockpit error, a short between the headsets and they were defrosting their frige and freezer (lots of expensive meat for the grill.)

    I thought of a potential improvement and have posted it under projects if anyone is interested. I hope to get comments from the "inspector" and other experienced folk.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  2. #2
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    Re: Standby generators

    Interesting post, Pat. I was under the impression that those 'boxes' were actually transfer switches that automatically switch the power source from line to generator, AND back again.

    Perhaps there are several types with varying degrees of automation?


  3. #3
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    Re: Standby generators

    Blue, I had never seen one like my friend had. It requires you to manually switch each pair of breakers with the GENERATOR/GRID "transfer" switch looking thingy being just a mechanical interlock that provents back feeding the line. I suppose it would be a lot cheaper than a REAL transfer switch. It works fine but IS NOT NEARLY FOOL PROOF.

    In the marine and RV applications I am familiar with, a single mechanical transfer switch (a handfull to throw) switches you from shore power to generator power. Fancier rigs use big contactors (relays) to automate the process. Systems like Gary and others hereabouts have are fuly automatic. They will start themselves when commercial power fails and transfer the critical loads. Then after a preset time subsequent to restoration of commercial power they transfer the critical loads back to the grid and shut down to await the next power loss event.

    If I recall correctly my freind paid 200-250 for his panel including installation. I don't think he got a particular pargain.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  4. #4
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    Re: Standby generators

    I have seen that type of setup, but don't recommend it. The automatic style are the best in my opinion.

  5. #5
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    Re: Standby generators

    There's always somebody willing to make things badly to make a buck, and someone willing to put up with it to save a buck. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]


    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    <font color="blue"> In the marine and RV applications I am familiar with, a single mechanical transfer switch (a handful to throw) switches you from shore power to generator power. </font color>

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Ah, 'shore power'. Remind me to tell you about the time I got "shore power" running from one hand to the other. Good thing I can take a lot of juice. An electrical path from hand to hand looks to me like it goes right across the ticker!

    [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

  6. #6
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    Re: Standby generators

    Blue, I did not mean to imply that my friend's transfer equipment was shoddy. It isn't, but it did seem overpriced for what it is and I thought I could do better.

    I was taught in a USAF electronics school to remove all rings, watches, etc and never NEVER put yourself in a position to take a shock from arm to arm as it will go through your heart. In fact we were cautioned to keep one hand in our pocket when situations where contact with a dangerous ckt was possible.

    I have seen samples of shoddy workmanship where many marinas have at least some of their shore power wired wrong with either a neutral-hot reversal or whatever (likewise V parks). The sailboat that I lived on for 9 years had a dangerous condition...

    Unbeknownst to me some idiot reversed the shore power connections upstream of the main electrical panel when the boat was built. As a result the breakers disconnected neutral, NOT THE HOT. Yes a breaker would turn off a circuit, i.e. stop something from running but there was still voltage on the ckt.

    Once when I was "cleaning house" I had removed all the cushions below decks and was literally hosing out the place, scrubbing everyting from the overhead to the bilge. As I used a two burner electric hot plate in port rather than the hand pumped alcohol range I wanted to clean under it. I kept it on the gimbled range top. I had the MAIN breaker turned off. I was standing in water in the galley and reached out to pick up the hot plate...

    S H A Z A M !!!!!! My muscle contraction tossed me across the galley and bounced me off the chart table. EEEEEEE HAWWWW

    I physically disconnected shore power and swapped the wires right then and there with no further delay.

    I have worked on high power transmitters, SONAR, and RADAR units and never got so much as a tingle but I actually tried to solder a modification in the final amp ckt of a tube type CB and forgot to turn it off. I got 750 volts in the hand holding the soldering iron. Luckily it was current limited and only startled me. Doing that dumb stunt on many of the units I have worked on would be instantly fatal first time every time, Consumers Reports check rated deadly!

    [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  7. #7
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    Re: Standby generators

    </font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
    S H A Z A M !!!!!! My muscle contraction tossed me across the galley and bounced me off the chart table. EEEEEEE HAWWWW


    [/ QUOTE ] <font color="red"> </font color>

    Eh - eh - Now we now what happened!! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

    Egon. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

  8. #8
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    Re: Standby generators

    That does explain a lot, doesn't it? [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
    Gary
    ----------------------------------------------
    Hey! Aren't you supposed to be working?

  9. #9
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    Re: Standby generators

    Egon, DIY ECT (electro convulsive therapy). I don't recomend it.

    Actually to qualify I suppose it would have had to connect to my head so it only qualifies as a Galvanic experiment with me standing in for the frog.

    I do have a much more magnetic personality now but I don't glow in the dark anymore.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  10. #10
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    Re: Standby generators

    Magnetic personality? Well, I DO shut off streetlights as I pass by. Not every time, mind you, but enough to be noticed by my wife. Weird. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]


    I know what you mean about improving my personal potential with radio equipment, though. I managed to key up a Midland radio once while I was holding an allen wrench plugged into the base of the antenna I was tuning. 150 watts at 43 MHz did get my attention! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]


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