Using Magnets to Soften Water

[Rayko]

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Good Day Folks:

The series of prior past posts on the subject of Magnetic Water Treatment Systems have been an exciting and spirited exchange of ideas and a forum for sharing many determined opinions. It has been lots of fun to say the least.

However, despite the over-abundance of firmly held opinions there appeared to be a serious lack of "substance" that anyone could really "hang their hat on". And, a resistance to the idea that a skeptic would actually try it out and report his results.

Since the concept of "Magnets" used to "treat water" has been around for over 100 years, it seemed logical that some well respected scientific investigation had to have taken place in order to either "prove or disprove" the concept -- PLUS be able to explain the "variability" of the reported test results and the success, or lack of success, on different water systems.

I was able to find a wide variety of comprehensive research reports on the subject that were conducted by "well respected" research organizations. I then selected two of the better one's that seemed to encompass the information contained collectively in most of the other reports.

One of the Research Programs, and subsequent reports, was done by the U.S. Department of Energy, and they issued a formal "Federal Technology Alert" on the subject which is the foundation document being used by various Federal facilities interested in applying Magnetic Water Treatment Technology in their facilities.

To read the full text of this "Federal Technology Alert" please use the following Web-Address:

www.scalefighter.com/doe_fta.htm

The Second Research study was conducted by Cranfield University, School of Water Sciences in Great Britain. They also did comprehensive research on the subject of Magnetic Water Treatment Systems and their effectiveness, and published their findings and report which is available at the following Web-Address:

www.cranfield.ac.uk/sims/water/magnets.htm

I don't believe the U.S. DOE, or Great Britain's Cranfield University is too influenced by the "placebo effect", nor, did they conduct the research with a "closed mind" to even considering the possibilities. It was research, for the sake of research. Therefore, their findings might be helpful to those wonderful folks out there who have decided that an open mind, and learning new things, is what life is all about, and the beginning of an exciting adventure.

For those of you who are more concerned about maintaining your firmly, and long held opinions about the subject. Please don't read these documents. I'd hate to be the one responsible for causing you to begin thinking "out-side the box".

Best Regards to you all

Rayko

[Hakim]

Hi Rayko,

Thank you for an truly excellent and highly informative post.

I have been a researcher and physician in the field of Eastern Medicine for more than 30 years. I am well aware of the many positive effects of "magnetic" forces. Tibetan, Chinese, Unani and Ayurvedic medicine --- with histories as long as 10,000 years of application -- all use magnetics in various forms.

Your article sheds a lot of light on a fascinating topic. I would suppose that much of the "opposition" might be generated by third parties who have potential financial loss if this very inexpensive mode of "softening" water took hold.

In any event, I wanted to thank you for your post. It is an almost perfect example of how to present topics, generate interest and support your points of view --- with clarity, intelligence and courtesy. I wish everyone on our forums would use this as a model.

All the best.

[Rayko]

Dear Hakim:

Thank you so very much for your kind comments.

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Rayko

[egon]

web page

Rayko:

A different site to look at.

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Rayko, I actually read the two articles you referenced and the one Egon supplied. I find the results claimed in the tests to not mesh well with your selected subject title, "Using Magnets to Soften water."

Where are the test reports relating to SOFTNESS of water? How much were the grains of hardness of water reduced by the installation of magnetic treatment units? The only thing I read that related to softnening of anything was the claims for softer scale being formed in heat exchangers.

If your intent was to offer proof that in some instances tests of magnetic devices showed positive evidence for softening or reducing boiler scale then congratulaltions, you have my vote.

I'm still waiting for any good science to report reduction of grains of hardness by the applicatioin of magnetic devices. Grains of hardness is of concern to many residential water users. Grains of hardness relates to soap scum in the shower on you and the shower surfaces. Grains of hardness relate to the results obtained in the laundry and the quantities of detergent and "helpers" needed to get the desired results.

From your choice of subject label I was expecting something relating to softening water not modifying the crystaline structure of the boiler scale or preventing or reducing the deposition of boiler scale. Apparently we were at cross purposes. I was focused on the subject you mentioned while you were focused on boiler scale.

Reducing boiler scale deposition and or modifying the crystaline structure of boiler scale is, no doubt, an important topic of interest to many people in certain specialized areas of interest. However, most layman upon reading "Using Magnets to Soften Water" do NOT immediately think, WOWEE magnets to reduce boiler scale deposition and or modify the crystaline structure of scale to a softer form. Instead they think... Will magnets SOFTEN MY WATER? Soften, i.e. reduce grains of hardness, reduce soap scum/curd, reduce the quantity of detergent required for a load of laundry? No evidence of that was evident in any of the three sited publications.

Sorry if I seemed closed minded, I'm not. Few scientists are. What we had was a failure to communicate not a dissagreement based on your offered information which I accept as well done tests with valid results.

Unfortunately, for my personal purposes, I am interested much more keenly in reducing grains of hardness than in softening scale deposits in heat exchangers. Proof of reduction of grains of hardness by magnetic means is as easily obtained as reproducible experiemts with positive results of cold fusion.

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[Rayko]

RE: Egon: I found the referenced test report fascinating and a great read. And, interestingly enough their results appear to stand in contrast to the results obtained by the DOE and Canfield University. It is no wonder that this subject continues to be a controversial topic with many diverse opinions, and no difinitive results.

Sometimes, when extremely different test results are obtained, when seemingly performing identical research tests, there is often times "other contributing factors" which are not being identified or controlled which are having an impact on the test results. This variance was mentioned in the DOE study and was sighted as one of the reasons why different test results could occur with different water supplies.

As a result, I have no doubt that the controversy will continue on.

RE: Pat: I used the Subject Title: "Using Magnets to Soften Water" for the "sole purpose" of identifying my post with the prior series of posts having that same Subject Title. I never intended to imply that the mentioned Research Results somehow prove that magnets soften water. From my very first post (in the prior series of posts), and including this one, I have always said that "Magnets DO NOT Soften the water".... And that continues to be the case. I have only stated that magnets "alter the water" in such a way as to eliminate some of the more unpleasant side effects of hard water, such as: Uncomfortable showers, and the need for high levels of cleaning detergents when doing laundry, etc.

In conclusion: This has been a fascinating exchange of ideas and opinions, but I must apologize for the fact that I view the subject rather selfishly, and only hoped to share this information with others who might also benefit from our experience...

My wife and I have had to live with extreme hard water for over 25 years, which included all of its uncomfortable and inconvenient side effects. We have used water softeners (which did work well), but when our last water softener finally "gave up the ghost" and was discarded, we just lived with hard water once again. Until one day, I experimented by putting a couple of heavy permanent magnets on our water supply line (without telling my wife), and that very day, she said to me: "Something has happened to our well water - its not hard anymore." She noticed changes when she did dishes, took a shower, washed her hair, and did laundry, and never new that I had added the magnets, until after she asked about it.

From that day forward we have been using and enjoying magnets.

Whether someone believes that magnets work or not, is not really relevant to us. We just keep on enjoying the pleasant water results.

For an analogy: Its a little bit like the next "miracle drug" that reports to cure some dreaded disease. It won't work 100% of the time on 100% of the patients that have the disease due to a wide variety of factors, but on the few patients that are alive as a result of this new miracle drug -- Do you really think the cured patient gives a hoot about a contrary opinion about the drugs efficacy from some academic who has never witnessed its effects. That's all the patient knows is that he's alive because of the drug, and that's all he cares about.

We're enjoying nice water. And that's all we care about -- We wouldn't dream of interfering with someone else's lifestyle choices, and insist on living with the problems associated with hard water because they refuse to "try something, from their point of view, that is outside the box".

As always: Its been fun and a pleasure.

Best Regards,

Rayko [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Rayko, I'm sorry but I think I missed the part of the reports where it mentioned better results in the laundry or the shower. As you have no doubt concluded, I did see the part of the reports that addressed boiler scale. I'm very happy for you that you are pleased with your results but I don't get the connection with the cited reports.

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[Rayko]

Hi Pat:

In the prior series of posts (under the same subject heading) most contributors de-rided the idea that magnets would have any effect or impact on water at all.

The Research Test Results showed that, contrary to the opinions expressed by prior posts, that Magnets do in fact have a documented influence on water.

It is true, that the purpose of these Tests was to help save money by those trying to reduce scale buildup in their boiler operations, and hence reduce operating costs. Thus creating financial gains by using magnets to pre-treat the water instead of using costly chemical pre-treatments.

There really is no financial "payoff" for having a nice shower, and the subtle benefits of using less detergent to do household laundry would hardly attract the attention of the Department of Energy. Therefore, I only offered our empirical observations of how it benefited us.

Once again, as I have done many times before, I suggest that those of you who suffer with hard water problems purchase a couple of inexpensive permanent magnets as an experiment, and put them on your plastic water supply lines, and try it out for yourself.

Give it a go, and let us all know how it turns out.

But, to refuse to even consider trying such an inexpensive personal experiment in Magnetically Treated Water, unless there is well documented research to support the $20 expense that a couple of magnets would cost, well, that's a personal choice.

Best Regards

Rayko
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[Pat]

Rayko, You didn't make it, in the words of our past president, "Perfectly Clear." Citing studies designed to investigate boiler scale but touting the benefits to hair washing, laundry, etc could be confusing, a RED HERRING if you will. For me the jury is still out as regards the conflicting claims made for ameliorating boiler scale issues and I see no meanigful connection between laundry and showers to the boiler scale issues.

If you want to point out that preconceived notions are sometimes in error you could drag out the old chestnut about aerodynamicists and the bumble bee. It seems that as far as the engineers were concerned a bumble bee would be incapable of sustained flight given its wing size, aspect ratio, fuel economy and capacity. The bumble bee of course didn't know all that and so it stays airborn for extended periods. Nice story about erroneous preconceptions BUT it too does not relate to shower or laundry performance. You see the "kernel" at the heart of the issue is GRAINS OF HARDNESS.

Alternatively, we can ignore a verifiable quantifiable easily measured attribute of water (grains of hardness) and go with subjective feelings. If a majority of folks feel that the water generates less soap curd and takes less detergent to do a load of wash and leaves their hair feeling as if it was washed in SOFT WATER then maybe something is hapening. Annecdotal evidence supported by a single set of "feelings" is not nearly as persuasive as a double blind test with a larger number of participants.

If the water users are unaware of whether they are getting the placebo or the REAL thing and the persons (same or others) that are gathering the data are also unaware of who gets what then you have a much more respectable controlled experiment that could stand up under peer review and give verifyable and repeatable results. One or two people in a purely annecdotal situation with no scientific rigor to the "experiment" should not be convincing to anyone with a modicum of exposure to the scientific method.

Citing studies that are essentially unrelated to the claims being made does not strengthen your position but in fact severely weakens it. Study results from a decent experiment relating to grains of hardness or subjective feelings regarding laundry and shower results would be quite significantly more convincing and appropriate in making a case for magnetically treated water being "softer."

An expected attribute of a scientist is healthy skepticism, a "I'm from Missouri, so show me" attitude. Supporting evidence needs to, in fact, support your claims not just show that magnets might do SOMETHING with water. Reporting that your wife thinks she gets nicer results washing her hair may get you a gold star by your name for the whole week (from her) but no doubt leaves several of your readers unconvinced.

I also wouldn't listen to Chicken Little (or anyone else) who is making claims about the sky falling untill or unless they could produce some fair size samples of pieces of sky.

I'm sorry if my skepticism or call for rigorous science in place of a single annecdotal claim frustrates you but the burden of proof resides with the person making the claim. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I'm saying you are a long long way from offering decent proof and that the "research" you cited does not support your claims. It is tatamount to saying: There are many medicines in pill form that help many people. The medicine I am touting is in pill form. Therefore it will help many people. SORRY but that is a logic error.

If a rigorous experiment were conducted and magnets were found to give results essentially equivalent to an ion exchange water softener the person conducting those experiments would likely be a candidate for a Nobel prize. Chloride polution is becoming a sensitive issue. Tons and tons of salt is entering the ground water through salting of roads for winter driving and water softener recharging.

It isn't that I don't have an open mind it IS that I don't let just everyting in without challenge.

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[Rayko]

Hi Pat:

I loved your post.... Have a nice day... I wish you the very best...

Rayko
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