Propane Vs. Solar

[SLOBuds]

I am building in California, and will get much of my hot water from solar collection. Space heating requirements will also be minimal.

If you were me, would you go with all-electric appliances and mechanicals, with those being supported through my own generation of electricity via photo voltaics? Or would you go with propane appliances and no photo voltaics? Or would you go with some combined solution?

I have decided to go on-grid, if 'photovoltaics' is the answer.

Thanks.

[egon]

Definetly propane appliances such as stove and fridge. Many farms of old used these prior to the electric comming to the house.

Can't comment on the rest due to a lack of knowledge.

Egon

[Pat]

If it functons by the generation of heat (range, dryer, and so forth) don't even think of trying to run it from photovoltaics. As far as some form of electric heat vs LPG the answer is MORE INSULATION and take you pick of heat sources. If you really have a great insolation (yes, insolation, not insulation) value in your area consider hydronic heat from solar collectors with a backup heat source.

You might want to consider Sunfrost brand frige and or freezer.

HOWEVER, if you have grid available the most economical solution is to use it. I have been "INTO" PV for decades and have never seen an installation that was more economical than the grid, where readily available. If you are just trying to make a statement, be advised that there are opportunities to pay a little extra on your util bill and specifiy the "source" or your juice. You can be "green" and quite frugal at the same time.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[lliefveld]

>>>HOWEVER, if you have grid available the most economical solution is to use it. I have been "INTO" PV for decades and have never seen an installation that was more economical than the grid, where readily available.>>>

In our case, the grid was available, for a price. The nearest pull box was 1/2 mile away from the edge of our property, and the house would be another 500 feet. The electric company wanted $25/linear foot to run the line, and we would be required to trench - at another $25/linear foot..... do the math. Paying for an off-grid solar system will be far cheaper in our case.

[Pat]

lliefveld, Doesn't this seem familiar somehow?

If I did the math correctly it would cost you 25K to get on the grid. To my way of thinking that does not constitute readily available... That said, what is the estimate of the total cost for going off-grid?

A wikiup with no plumbing can go off-grid cheaply. Pictures of the earth rising over the moon's horizon can be had but at quite a price for transportation.

Just curious what the total costs will be to go off-grid for you. A typical installation selects different appliances than the average household at a significant upcharge. Of course there are the banks of batteries, backup generator, a large (enourmous?) battery charger, inverters, charge controllers, the panels themselves and lots of heavy gauge wiring, and an expensive professional installation unless you are a pretty savy electrical dude, and on and on... For greater efficiency you might want at least single axis trackers if not dual axis. Then there are various concentrator implementations for greater efficiency. If this is to be "TO CODE" and not make your insurance folks nervous then it is not a simple undertaking.

Do you have city/rural water supplied or are you on a well or trucking your potable water? If you have to pump your own water that can be a significant investment if the well is deep.

If city water, who trenches it in and can you use the same trench for wires?

Not to get nosy about your religion or lifestyle but living like a monk, off-grid, is not such a challenge. Living with oodles of modern conveniences is.

If you have or if you do make the analysis I would be curious as to your "pay back" or breakeven time. Even with the 25K leverage you could be looking at quite a cost up front. To be fair you should do a net present value calculation for the competing solutions. One would detail the total installation, operation, and maint costs for say 20 years for the solar solution and the other the same way but for the grid.

The only realistic way to compare is to compare total lifecycle costs using a net present value calculation.

No matter what, I wish you the best of luck in your adventure. And "oh by the way" don't skimp on lightning protection unless you don't mind the $ it takes to do it again.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] I'm thinking about possibly building/moving into, an off-grid wikiup, but make it with multi-zone air conditioning, huge media room, all-electric GE kitchen, and twin 16-cylinder Caterpillars out back in the generator shack. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat,....some of your comments are......well...... good for a crack-up now and then. [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Pat]

cjdave, Life is too short to be taken too seriously. None of us are getting out of here alive. Sure we need to tend to necessary buisness, i.e. "render unto Cesar what is Cesar's", but shucks we need to loosen up a mite when we can.

I am pleased to be the source of a smile now and then whether it was intentional or just a serendipitous chunk of hapenstance.

On the serious side, I have often answered the questiion of whether someone should go electric or gas with INSULATION. In most instances, super insulating and tightening up a structure will save more money than the difference between gas and electric. It is like "buying down" a mortgage. You are buying down your utility bills. Done right, insulation doesn't age or degrade and will pay for itself. If you sufficiently reduce your Btu requirement it becomes a moot question where the Btu's come from and the relative costs of providing them. Said another way, if you can heat with a candle and cool wilth an ice cube it doesn't matter too much if you bought the most efficient candle or what the technology was that produced the ice cube.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Comparisons like that often remind me of the oil embargo days of the seventies when folks practically GAVE AWAY perfectly good, low-mileage, land yachts and bought heavily marked-up Volkswagen Rabbits to "save on fuel". Nobody bothered to figure out how many YEARS it would take to get that dough back, since they were actually only saving the DIFFERENCE, not the TOTAL fuel cost. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I had the pleasure of doing some welding on the bottom side of a vacation trailer today in a shop with FLOOR HEAT. WOT a pleasure that was! And yes, I DID put some welds on that rig that you could take to the Fair in Sacramento. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] The owners had ripped a spring hangar off the frame. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[Pat]

CJDave, When someone starts going on about buying a new car to save money on gas I suggest they look at the costs and time to break even if the new car didn't use gas, just ran and had other costs but did't require fuel. However many years it takes to break even that way is of course better than the REAL picture. It makes the math so easy there is no wiggle room left. Most of the time you can't justify a new car on economic grounds just because it has good mileage. We were lucky, we needed a car and the Prius is a great fit for our needs. The economy is fine and it doesn't hurt our feelings to be a bit green as regards consumption of petrochemicals and production of exhaust emissions.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[lliefveld]

Hi Pat - I don't think you did the math correctly. 1/2 mile is 2640 feet - plus the 500 to the house is 3140. At $50/linear foot, that's $157,000.

It looks like we'll be able to go off-grid for somewhere between $50K and $75K.