water well

[Pat]

Egon, On our two failed expeditions into the Chocolate Mountains to rediscover the Lost Dutchman's Mine we were very cautious about our water sources as some of the water there is high in arsenic. We were using a couple different types of water purifiation tablets which killed biologics but did not remove any minerals. Halezone and Iodine were the "standard" fare then. Now we have a pump equipped with a microbiologic filter that we cary in our camper for just in case. What the world needs is a back pack sized RO unit.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[egon]

We have a "Pur" portable filter in the freezer. Think it goes down to 2 microns and has iodine in the filter.

Uhh - I've got a an old map inherited from my grandfather who, when young, traded a windbroke mustang to a footsore old prospector for the Original map to the "Lost Dutchman Mine". Unfortunetly he moved north and with a new family was never able to check it out. I've never had a chance either. It's up for bids ehh !!! [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Egon, A filter size of 2 microns won't touch arsenic.

Yesterday I visited a friend in Norman OK (Home of OU) and he told me several of the wells supplying water to Norman are contaminated with arsenic. The city mixes it with less contaminated water to bring the concentration down to within Federal guidelines. Glad I don't have water from their water department.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat,....here is the way that those guys over in Norman are looking at their little problem:
"The SOLUTION.......to POLLUTION........ is DILUTION".

[img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[DuaneBoyce]

my water test were 2ppm iron, ph 6.5, hardness 8 gr per gal.

would a simple water softner(like the ones at lowes) fix these problems or not?

[Pat]

Duane, Just about any residential water softener will handle the hardness. These units typically exchange sodium for the calcium in the water. The water is soft (reacts well with soaps and detergents without making excess curd) but has a lot of sodium and is not the best thing to drink and cook with. Some gardeners and flower folk won't even water plants with it.

If you plumb your faucets for drinking (and ice makers) to the hard water you avoid that problem. The hard water is better medically than the sodium rich softened water. You can use alternative chemicals in place of salt in the regular softener and avoid the sodium problem but at a bit more expense and slightly less ease of availability. You can use a RO (Reverse Osmosis) filter for your drinking, cooking and ice maker water. It will work before or after the water softener and will produce water as good or better than most commercially available botled water. Some folks quibble about the water wasted by the RO unit. You can run the discharge from the RO unit outside so it waters something or fills an architectural water feature or bird bath or... ITs discharge isn't poison it just contains whatever the unit is removing from your water. It will have a higher concentratioin of whatever is in the water fed into it.

I'm not sure about the EPA recommendatiions for PPM of iron. Water softeners with no accessories added DO NOT remove iron. I'm not sure if your iron is high enough to warrant treatment. Check it out with a few googles to find out the EPA recommendations. There are units for treating iron available to the DIY guy if your levels are judged to be too high. If your pH is a problem after treatment, that too can be adjusted with manual or automatic equipment. They add a safe basic chemical to neutralize acidity which YOU DO NOT WANT as acids disolve metals such as those your faucets and some other plumbing may be made of. Softening should help control any pH imballance on the basic side of neutral as it removes the calcium.

Oh, by the way, if yo ask around I'm sure you will find several folks who have drunk softened water for years with no known side effects (at least that they are aware of but how would they know if they lowered their kids IQ by 20 points or cut 10-20 years off their life span?)

Arsenic in wells (in rather small concentrations) has of late been the subject of some scientific enquiry. Researchers gave cognitive tests to children drinking the arsenic contaminated water and compared their scores to children of equivalent socioeconomic background drinking better water. Those drinking the arsenic contaminated water were by comparison, retarded.
There are folks who walk across the street without checking for traffic and make it OK but that doesn't make it a recommendable behavior. Likewise folks drinking contaminated water and claiming no ill effect may be blissfully ignorant of the long term deleterioius effects. Oh, and acceptable arsenic levels are being RETHOUGHT.

As regards all the extra sodium in softened water... I don't think drinking it and hoping for the best is a sound strategy no matter how many folks you find that have done it. If you opt for a softener, consider using the alternative chemistry and or not drinking the soft water or both.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

The formula to find the amount of added sodium by ion exchange water hardness removal (a water softener) is 7.85 mg/l per grain per gallon of exchange. I.E. 15 gpg hardness * 7.85 mg/l, roughly a quart of water, = 117.75 mg of added sodium.

BTW, all waters contain a varying amount of sodium. And that can be proven by reading an annual city water CCR (consumer confidence report) or going to the water quality section of their web site. You can also check the labels on any bottled water for sodium content per serving.

All water softeners (ion exchange) remove ferrous (soluble, clear water) iron, but, a big box store brand softener will not do so very long without problems. Check the maximum iron that the softener you are thinking of buying to see how much iron it can remove; or ask the dealer. Most big box stores have a 1-2 ppm of iron limit. Most water treatment dealers' softeners will remove up to 3 ppm and any of them can be built to remove up to 5 ppm. A few will claim up to 10 ppm of iron but they usually fail within a few years.

The EPA has a suggested MCL (maximum contaminate level) of .3 ppm for ferrous iron. And as little as .03 ppm of iron is sufficient to cause rust stains on surfaces wherever the water stands or evaporates on.

With 2 ppm of iron in the above water test results, times 4 to convert to gpg, = 8 plus the hardness of 8 gpg = 16 gpg compensated hardness. With acid neutralizing using sacrificial mineral, added hardness of roughly 4 gpg = 16 gpg for added sodium of 125.6 mg/l.

A slice of white bread normally has150 mg of sodium. An 8 oz glass of V8 juice has 560 mg. An 8 oz glass of skim milk has 530 mg of sodium. I could go on but... IMO only those folks on a sodium restricted diet need be concerned. Here is a link to show sodium content in other common foods/beverages:
http://www.awqinc.com/sodium_softening.html

No one should use the reject water of a RO system. Especially without knowing what and how much of it the RO is removing/reducing from the water it is treating.

Using salt substitute, potassium chloride, instead of softener salt, sodium chloride will require an increased salt dose in the majority of softeners. That can be as much as 30% more and is determined by the salt efficiency of the salt dose in the given volume and type of resin used in the softener.

Arsenic is a serious health problem for people of all ages. As are many other things found in water. And if it's there, the water treatment industry has equipment to remove or reduce it on either a POE (point of entry) or POU (point of use) basis.

Duane, I suggest a correctly sized softener using a Clack WS-1 control valve.

Gary Slusser

[Pat]

Great info Gary, Thanks. My wife and I drink the low sodium V-8. Oh, by the way, there is considerable variation in the range of medical opinions regarding the adviseability of various sodium levels in the diet. I tend to try to err on the low side of what the average person does (which in my thoughts is to get way too much) but I'm not on a crusade for super low sodium for everyone. For those of us who do try to reasonably restrict sodium intake AND drink a significant amount of water (now being discredited as a health boost) would be adding significant extra unneeded unwanted sodium.

As a purely personal taste issue, I have of course had softened water to drink and NEVER liked the taste but am sure there are folks who think it is ambrosia.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

Pat that's great. My concern was/is that those folks reading your comments about "significant extra unneeded unwanted sodium" may not be as far above average as you are. I also thought they might appreciate the formula to do their own calculation of the actual amount of sodium that is added. I was not attempting to change your mind in the slightest.

Gary Slusser

[Pat]

Gary, I never thought you were doing anything but delivering the facts. And good stuff it was. In a contest of facts versus opinions... Facts win. Of course there are always interpretations of facts that seem to change over time like fashions.

I have been reading lately about the "drinking lots of water for your health" advise that has been so popular to talk about but usually not actually performed by many. It seems that proper hydration in ordinary circumstances does not require near the quantities touted. Even medical science can have a change of mind.

When I had a softener, I plumbed the house to only soften the hot water and the water going to the laundry and bathroom. It was a crawl space house so access to the pipes was trivial and since it was only about 800 sq ft I didn't have to crawl all that far. I installed a RO unint in the kitchen.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]