Natural Gas vs. Propane

[Leef]

Hello again,

My wife and I are planning to break ground in early spring on a 2800 sq ft ranch with unfinished full basement including walkout to the north. We will have radiant floor heating tubing laid in the basement floor but won't install the boiler/water heater... until we finish the basement in the future.

The basement will be block foundation with 2x6 framed upper walls and will be "energy star" rated for efficiency.

I don't know what propane would cost to install, but I just figured the cost for trenching in the natural gas line to the road. My cost will be approx. $4200. I will be speaking with the HVAC contractor soon and will ask to compare to propane. I have no experience with it's efficiency or the ongoing costs or the hassle of having the tank filled periodically.

Are they pretty equal in terms of heating my home?

Leef

[Bird]

Leef, I've had a great deal of experience with both natural gas and LPG, and either one will do the job just fine. Personally, just for the convenience, I'd much prefer the natural gas, but I don't know what the cost difference would be.

[egon]

They will both work eqally well and use the same basic equipment.

Due to the pysical characteristics of propane[ heavier than air] I'd vote for natural gas.

Cost difference may be an undeterminable item and may vary from year to year.

Egon

[StanleyinMd]

Leef, forgot to mention, like Bird said, you will be happy with both. I've heard that natural gas has a slightly higher BTU factor than LP.

[StanleyinMd]

Due to the pysical characteristics of propane[ heavier than air] I'd vote for natural gas.

Leef, My 2 cents on this topic is that as mentioned propane is heavier than air and will settle to the lowest level. What this means is that should there be a gas leak the propane will settle in the basement making it a much more dangerous situation should the gas come in contact with a source of ignition. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] On the other hand natural gas will rise and hopefully exit the building, (if there is an exit). I've have propane in my current home, and my previous two homes. I've had full basements in both (Maryland). I do not have the choice between natural and propane. The good thing about natural gas is you never run out, but at the same time you are stuck with whatever the supplying gas company wants to charge for it. With my propane tank (which I bought and is buried in the ground), I can shop around for the best price. I've never run out of propane. My supplier has different billing and filling options that might work for you. Some charge a year in advance to fill the tank and you get a slightly, and I mean slightly better price [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] than trying to buy propane this time of the year. I purchase propane usually in later August or September. I keep an eye on the propane tank and if the gauge indicates it is very low I'll personally call the company and have them come out to fill it up. In the past, when fuel was cheaper they came out every so often and automatically topped off the tank (which is 80% full to allow for expansion). One sticking point with shopping around for propane is that if you decide to switch to a different propane company THEIR service technician will want to come out to make sure your gas tank, connections, etc. are safe, at a cost of $75 or more. Soooo, we've stayed with the same company for several years and they are pretty competitive. Good luck in your decision. Stanley [img]/forums/images/icons/laugh.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Leef, A walkout basement in Iowa with the walkout on the north side! That is a pretty interesting approach. You might want to consider a decent slab on the outside of the walkout with hydronic heat for snowmelt.

...but what do I know, my walkout is on the south side.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Leef]

Pat,

I expected you to pick up on the north facing walkout [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] . What can I say, that's where the view and the terrain mandate. Thankfully, the woods may act as a wind break and we'll insulate well.

I'll be able to post pictures once we break ground in April.

Leef

[Pat]

Leef, The first thing that came to mind was an underground building at a university in Minnesota. They installed a "picture window" in it. It is actually a LARGE non-rotating periscope. It was supposed to relieve stress of folks being so far underground. It turned out that it was mostly used at lunch time. Folkswould run out to the lobby to look at the window before going to lunch. This was to see what the surface weather was doing!

You could build a huge periscope so when you look out of your SOUTH facing walkout you are actually looking towards the north at the superior view.

I know what it is like to have to compromise because of a view. I turned our project a bit clockwise to enhance a view of a large pond so our main axis is not quite E-W but is close enough.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, I am seriously thinking of adding a PERP-is-scope to the "stealth" shop that we are building in a former corn crib. Our goal is to have no outward sigh of occupancy; let along SHOP occupancy; and so far we have accomplished that goal. Even the A/C condenser is hidden. [img]/forums/images/icons/wink.gif[/img] We are preparing for the day when the progeny of the folks; who came to Iowa illegally to cut meat for less than a living wage; will mature and become the super-predators [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] that their cousins in California are; and will subsequently be going out into the rural countryside to burgle unlocked houses barns and shops. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img] We have a great workshop in the works, but I would like to have a window with which to monitor the outside world. A periscope-window is a great idea! [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Dave, A couple (three or more is better) two axis gimbled remote controlled camera mounts with a commanding view of the area of interest and a few other gadgets and you could have your own semi-automated (or semi-autonomous) area defense system. Shaft position indicators like used on NC mills and such can serve as digital inputs to a procesor of moderate capacity (cheap used laptop) to generate a "bogey's" position in 3space. If you should expand the surveilance sytem's function to include remote weapon entrainment and firing then for liability reasons you need a MIL (Man In the Loop) because of the precedence set by the farmer up in the Dakotas who was sued by the guy who broke into one of the farmers buildings several times until the farmer rigged a shotgun to the door. The crook prevailed in court while the farmer lost criminally and civilly.

There is reltively affordable image monitoring software used for security purposes. If something in a video image changes more than the user selected threshold then that constitutes motion (potential intruder) detection. This gives your motion detector sensors the range of a camera, i.e. essentially unlimited so you can detect motion at a distance like a person or vehicle on your driveway or in a field or...

Concerns for liability (or squeemish considerations for what if...) turns some installations to the use of sub-lethal yet useful deterents. Water cannon, high intensity spray of dye, odorants, etc., sonic deterents, audible and ultrasonic, can be quite effective. Strobes and bright flashing green laser devices temporarily disorient but have some contrast problems in bright daylight.

The possibilities are nearly endless and with some ingenuity and scrounging ability the cost can be controlled well.

A small demonstration system comprised of a motion detector unit canabalized from a security light, a water control solenoid from a discarded dishwasher (check your red neck neighbors's yard) and a rain bird type sprinkler will give you a basic system that will detect an intruder and turn on the sprinkler. Be sure to put the motion detector in "TEST" position so it will work day or night and limits the spray to about 10 seconds anfer the intruder is out of detection range. Note: Aiming and adjusting the sensor can be separate from the aiming of the sprinkler.

The first of these I built kept dogs and cats out of my landscaping and trained the letter carrier to stay on the sidewalk and not cut across the yard and go through a hole in the hedge I was trying to get to grow closed.

As for connecting this post to the topic, any of the above can be powered by a generator fueled with natural gas or propane.

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[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]