Shower Pan

[gsganzer]

I'm getting ready to start on the master bath remodel. It looks like I'll need to build my own shower pan because of the odd size. The shower will be tiled. Can anyone point me to some reference material on how to do it right?

I've seen the PVC sheet material at Lowes/HD. I just need to study up on the proper method of making one. Frame/float/membrane/float/tile etc.

Thanks

[DocHeb]

Fine Homebuilding had two great articles that I used to build my custom-shaped, tiled shower. See Issue #141 pgs 66-71 on building the pan, while Issue #160 pgs 88-93 covers the entire construction process for rebuilding a shower. If you can't find them as back issues from Taunton's Press send me a PM and we'll work something out.

[gsganzer]

Docheb, you're the best! Just what I was looking for. I'll find the issues somewhere. I'll send pictures when I'm done.

[Pat]

gsganzer, Just a couple suggestions:

1. Be super fanatically clean about sweeping up, vacuuming, licking, whatever everything where or near to where you will put the water proof sheet material when you do the pan. A sharp piece of debris so small as to not be noticed can ruin your day (or month.) clean the sheet stuff too.

2. EDPM may cost more than even the most HD vinyl at Lowes but it is a superior product.

You will be hating life if you save a few bucks and end up with a leak.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[gsganzer]

I'm looking into precast pans first. If I can modify our layout a little and use a precast pan, and still achieve the look and space I'm after, then that's the route I'll try to use.

I have a pier and beam house on N. Texas black clay and it can shift quite a bit throughout the year. I'm real concerned with how well a built-in-place mortar and tile pan will hold up. As you said, it's not the place I want to cut corners and be frugal. I'm still in the research phase.

I'm gutting the bathroom as we speak. After I finish gutting and framing, I'll tape everything off and take another set of measurements to see what will work for the space. I'd prefer to avoid building a pan because of the additional labor and time and the potential for failure of the pan.

[Pat]

gsganzer, I did my mom's house with piers and grade beams to the amazement and consternation of the local good ole boys. It is a crawl space type, is yours? I think maybe not from your concern for problems with a shower pan. Are you familiar wth carton forms? You could do the pan atop carton forms and greatly reduce (as in totally elliminate) any problems of cracks in the pan. If on a slab you could demo the slab where the shower goes, excavate a bit for the carton forms, and pour a heavily reinforced subpan doweled into the slab arouind the periphery. Less work than you might think A_N_D it would be bullet proof in the presence of expansive soil, real permanent like!

There are easier ways of course. Get a prefab GRP (FRP) unit and just add yoiur own tile to it.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Chillimau]

Don't know if this is too late, but check out the Schluter Kerdi system. This is a membrane that is applied over the top of the mortarbed but under the tile. It has a proprietery drain that is used with it. The Kerdi is also used up the walls to atleast the shower head height. You can make the entire shower (floor, walls and ceiling) water proof if you wish, i.e. steam room. With the Kerdi membrane the mortarbed in the shower floor is never wet and the cement board never wicks water from the mortarbed. With a PVC or EPDM liner, once the mortarbed and cement board is soaked and it will be within the first few times you use the shower, your cess pool starts it life and will may never dryout unless you quit using the shower for weeks on end.

I have built two showers with the Kerdi system and am no pro but if you are going to build a mortar shower this is the way to go. It does take attention to detail to get a leak free shower but the shower will last.

I tore out a shower that was built with a pvc or EPDM liner, I don't know or care which, and it was NASTY. The liner was fine, no problem there. There was some mildrew on the grout in the floor that just couldn't be cleaned, I understood why when I started getting to the mortarbed and most of it was black with mold and smelled terrible. The weep holes in the drain had become plugged with water deposits and whatever else was in the water. The pan also didn't have a preslope to drain the mortarbed, so only part of the mortarbed drained even before the weep holes closed up. My shower was not built right to begin with, and never really had a chance of a long clean life.

But even if it had been built properly, the mortarbed would still have gotten wetted down on a near daily basis and the weep holes would have still closed up with deposits over time.

I don't subscribe to the idea of putting a big chunk of porous sand and cement (mortarbed) in the wet side of things and soaking it down on a daily basis with no easy way for it to dry out.

I know there are showers built with a PVC or EPDM liner that look and work good today and probably will for years to come, but after my very limited experience in shower building and repair, I'm not gonna do it with a PVC or EPDM liner.

Soapbox mode OFF, YMMV

Gary

Here is a link to the Schluter Kerdi Shower system.

Kerdi Shower System

[Pat]

Chillimau, I don't know how they did tile showers in the "olden days" except some folks used lead pan liners. Yup a sheet of lead metal folded at the corners and pounded to shape as required.

My previous house was built in 1928 and still had the original tile in the bathroom, including the walk-in shower. I don't know what the construction of the pan was but inspectors crawled under and looked for evidence of leaking and found none. I did have a crack develop in the tile shower wall in a grount line but scraped it out with a grout scraper thingy and regrouted with no recurence in 15 years.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[twstanley]

One thing is to use a good grout sealer after you do whatever you use for a shower pan. The grout sealer is very important to stop water penetration and mold/mildew growth in the grout.

[Pat]

twstanley, Can you elaborate on "Good grout sealer?" We paid $85/gal at a discount tile outlet that caters to both contractors and walk-in trade in the hopes that it would be as good as the store personnel claimed. I tried to saturate the grout lines with it. All but a small dab of our tile is porcelain and won't absorb sealers but I tended to wipe a small quantiy across the face of the tile to avoid having any variation in color where I might get a little out of the grout line onto the tile face.

The tile in the shower floor still beads water. I guess when it quits beading that would be the earliest that it wo.d be beneficial to reseal.

I'm open to suggestions.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat