Haying Agreements

[rvaitor]

Greetings,

My mother-in-law has been letting a neighbor hay her pastures on a Farm in NC. She doesn't receive any compensation and the thinking is it keeps the fields clear and looking pretty good.

I've been helping her with odds and ends - fixing up an old house, cleaning up around. Last year I purchased a tractor and dozer.

I think it would be prudent to formalize our haying agreement. One of the problems is fences have not been maintained and 4 wheelers are entering the property where the Haying fellow does. Also, it seems he's just cutting the heart out of the pasture. He claims he has been fertilizing but I have no confirmation - he fertilizes his own fields with waste sewage. That is not happening on our property. But the question is he's not spending money on his own property, why would he on ours.

Liability and reporting of production are issues as well.

I'm looking for either a sample agreement or a list of items that should be addressed in any agreement.

Thanks in advance.

[Pat]

rvaitor, A first question is, who else might be interested in making hay on the place. If there are no good candidates then I'd be careful how I approached the current guy unless you'd not mind loosing his "services."

Depending on the quality of the hay produced there might not be much economic value left after consideration for the equipment wear and maint, fuel cost, and operator time. Depending on his fertilizatioin (if any) he might still be taking more out of the land than is being replaced. This might not be a real good deal for either party.

Maybe you should try to get a little more out of the dude haying while givning him a little more at the same time. Maybe the impediments to haying a larger percentage could be remedied. This would give him more hay and you a better mowing job.

What prevents mowing more of the land? Is it junk in the way
or is some of the land just not producing well enough to warrant the expenditure of resources to hay it (or weeds and brush?)

I think if you expect the haymaker to fix the fence you might find he isn't interested enough in the hay to take it on. Then what? I'd try to have a plan B and plan C thought out before disturbing plan A, whether regarding inreasing the percentage hayed or fixing the fence. If increasing the percent hayed was attractive to him he would have already done it if it wasn't more effort than he thinks it is worth. Clearly he is "cherry picking" but might not be interested in having to do more.

What about a controlled burn? Talk to your extension agent. Sometimes a controlled burn is the most economical means of clearing away brush and weeds (if that is what prevents some of the area from being hayed.) Around here, we more enlightened owners realize that fire is natures way. I have only participated in a few controlled burns adding up to less than a thousand acres (so far only a hundred of mine.) It sure improved the quality of grazing on my place and likewise the quallity of hay should we decide to bale some.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[rvaitor]

That's a valid point - do I have alternatives. I guess I do if I want to cut the pasture myself. There is no junk in the way other than areas either he or someone has let grow back in. I've been cutting brush back and out of areas and hope these will regenerate into pasture - I may need to seed or kill some stuff. Not sure about controlled burns in this area.

I also want the hay removed as well(rather than left on the edge of the field). I will see how he responds - I also have a back up as far as haying goes both for continued haying or just cutting it myself. He's gotten free hay for over a decade so he shouldn't be too upset that there are some reasonable expectations on our side as well.

[Pat]

rvaitor, My ref to junk meant steel or wood (or similar) artifacts that would inhibit haying. Brush and weeds are a pain but can be brush hogged low to the ground to give the grass a chance. You might have to seed and feed the area to jump start the grass so as to allow it to compete favorably with the weeds and brush.

Do check with your extension agent as regards a controlled burn. It is cost effective, and can do wonders in giving grass a decent start. If no grass in the "bad" area (where not hayed) a controlled burn is still a cost effective approach. You'll need to get details on wind, temp, and humidity conducive to success and disk a wide firebreak arouind the target area. I'm not a pyromaniac but I have seen the before and after situation as regards burning and agree with the ag research guys, fire can be a GOOD thing.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[rvaitor]

Well,

I have an area that is maybe beyond brush hogging and maybe a burn would be the best way to clean it up. I was going to cut all I could and use the dozer to take out the rest - and then burn - maybe I need to burn first.

I'll check in with the extension agent. I have an ext plan from 59 & 62 that shows how things 'used' to be. Maybe we can get an update.

appreciate the advice

[Pat]

rvaitor, When the only tool you have is a hammer every job looks like a nail. A whlle back when I had a lot more enthusiasm, optimism, and energy most every job on the place looked a lot like a tractor job and often called for buying another implement. I soon learned that hiring a dozer or excavator was faster and better most of the time for big jobs and sometines cheaper, especiallyl in my time and wear and tear on my equipment and body.

It took me a while before I got used to the idea of letting fuel stand in the field in prep for a burn. I wanted to bale or have baled everything possible and if not bale it at least mow it down. Why, because it was there and it gave me seat time on my new tractor with cab and A/C. It took a gradual realization that the extensioin agents and the Noble Foundation representatives actually knew what they were talking about, even when it flew in the face of "COMMON SENSE" which turned out to be commonly wrong and not really make sense a good deal of the time.

Of course I have a lot of native grasses and they evolved under the hooves of bison and in the ashes of fires. The desireable grasses survive controlled burns quite well and way better than much of the brush and weeds. At one time I tried to rid the place of persimmons by brush hogging. An extension agent told me it probably couldn't be done (at least not economically), even if you hired someone to spell you, "hot seating" the tractor. The resources involved and time WASTED would be too great. So I sprayed them with pasture weed spray (Remedy) and that was a waste of time. For a few days there I was really happy. Within 24-48 hours all the leaves withered and began to fall off. Unfortunately they took all the poison with them passing none to the plant and then the plant just put out new leaves and went on. I then talked to the extension agent and he said at best with my approach I might make some of the persimmions mad but that was about it.

Notice a rucurring theme here? I do what SEEMS to be the logical or desireable thing, it doesn't work, AND THEN I talk to the extension agent and progressive neighbors (a distinct miinority.) Now I know how to control the persimmons and lots of other things. I now ask competent authority BEFORE I take a lot of time, burn a lot of diesel fuel, needlessly run up the hour meter on the tractor, and in general waste time and $.

I have come to believe in burning as being a terrific alternative to chemical sprays. A couple laps around the target acreage with a disk for a fire break is much less effort and expense than covering the whole thing with chemicals (I believe the least chemicals needed the better.)

I can easily get help to make a burn. It only costs me a few seats around a resturant table for Friday night all you can eat catfish and some pop and snacks during the burn day. In turn I help my neighbor and then he helps me with burning. Other neighbors with 4 wheelers and walkie talkies patrol to see that everything is staying under control and seem to enjoy themselves a lot and allways volunteer to help whichever of us is burning.

An early spring burn creates an ugly black barren pasture that rapidly greens up with desireable grasses and is virtually weed and brush free. It is a very noticible improvement. Depending on your situation you might burn anywhere from JUST ONCE to every 2nd, 3rd, 5th or whatefer year. Due to our drought, I will probably not get to have the burn I wanted for my eastern 80 acres. I will be llooking for EXTRA stock to run there to tromp it down. and maybe get in a burn next time.

Oh, did I mention that you might want to consider a controlled burn?

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] As a "program" for our last Lions Club meeting, I was able to get the local Private Lands Biologist from the Dept of Natural Resources to speak to us on a variety of land use issues. It was one of the most informative presentations that I have ever attended on the subject of habitats, methods, and land practices. BURNING was a frequently mentioned tool for restoring the kinds of grasses that were desireable both from an agricultural standpoint as well as establishing the right kinds of habitat. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]

[hudr]

We have done controlled burns for several years. We also aerate hay meadows once a year (usually after the burn). Our topsoil has improved steadily. We do soil tests every 3 years to see where we stand on nutrients. Also, our local VFD is very helpful in the controlled burns. Someone usually misses their scheduled drill so that person "makes it up" by bringing a water truck out to a controlled burn and "babysitting". This usually then precipitates a donation to the VFD fund. (works a lot like Pat's catfish dinner) [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]
Yes, check w/ the extension agents, local feed/seed store owners, and others who can help out. I, too, have found lots of stuff that is actually easier to hire done than to do myself. Saves time, $$$ and frustration.
Also, not trying to make the hay out to be a crook, but nobody will take care of your land like you will. The land I bought had been "mined" for seveal years by the previous owner.
Something Dad and I found out. If you are cutting/baling hay off your place to sell, you are shipping all the nutrients out with it. If there is nothing putting those nutrients back you will soon be out of the hay business and into the weed business. We try to cut enough hay for ourselves and let the cows put some of the nutrients back in the ground. Also, some type of legume will help w/ nitrogen content and cut down on fert. costs. But it is all a slow process.

[Pat]

Dave, Yes, those of us in the know often chant "Burn Baby Burn!"

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Pat, did you know the following facts about goats? (1) they eat the woodiest stemmed weeds first and work their way down the list to the best grasses last. (2) their crap doesn't spread weed seeds because the seeds are too chewed up. (3) Goat milk is easier to digest and is the most consumed milk on the planet next to human milk. (4) If the summers are warm enough where you live, you can have a tent and a few goats as a way of culturally identifying with your Mideast brothers. (5) you can rent your herd to highway departments to graze out the areas in cloverleaf highway interchanges. (6) Goat meat is held in high regard by the burgeoning Hispanic population in the U.S. so you have a ready market for meat goats. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] Oh....and one final note: Goats also like tractor seat upholstery, and there is no open control station tractor, either tracked or on rubber, that a goat cannot climb up onto. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]