Using potassium permanganate and septic systems

[slapshot]

I have pretty bad Iron and Sulfur in my water. I'm looking at getting a Greensand filter to use in with my Whole House and Softener.
The greensand filter uses potassium permanganate for backflushing. Does this backflush pose a problem for my septic system? I realize that there is extra water, but rather the chemicals that would be flushed into it.

Thanks
dave

[GaryQWA]

A greensand filter is old technology and the water treatment industry is trying to get away from its use due to the use of potassium permanganate; a serious poison. But I've never heard of PP causing any septic system problems. I have seen and heard of it in 'your' water when the filter malfunctions though. It makes the water pink, and that is a serious problem and dangerous.

There are many other choices that are less expensive to purchase and maintain than greensand. They are an inline erosion pellet chlorinator followed by a special mixing tank and a Centaur carbon filter. An air pump system including a Centaur carbon filter. Or in some cases, a chlorine pellet dropper on the well casing.

If you have heavy iron, say over 2 ppm, you could have IRB (iron reducing bacteria) and that requires a disinfectant and will 'kill' any type filter without a disinfectant.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Pat]

GaryQWA, PP got hard for civilians to get in SOCAL. Although useful for such innocuous things as treating for ICK in aquaria it could be used for DIY abortions so got hard to get.

IF you have some make a small conical pile of the crystals (several spoonsful.) then make a small depression in the top so it looks like a volcanic crater. Now pour a few spoonsfull of glycerine into the depression and stand back. The PP begins to oxidize the glycerine and the heat builds up enough to ignite the glycerine, the whole while purple sparks will be flying and smoke will be generated simulating a small volcano erruption. Do this OUTSIDE and stay upwind.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[BlueRidge]

I thought that chemical sounded familiar! It's my old friend from 7th grade science class! Only we used a 'wick' of magnesium ribbon to ignite it.

[Pat]

Sorry Blue, I think your old friend was "THERMITE" which is commonly ignited with a magnesium strip leading into some powdered magnesium atop the thermite mixture. Thermite is used for certain welding operations as well as to destroy stuff like guns and tanks and such.

The potassium permanganate and glycerine is self igniting and would not require a magnesium "fuse."

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[BlueRidge]

No, no no, Pat! Thermite would have burned right through the dish AND table and started on the concrete floor. We'd have made the 6 o'clock news... all across the country. This is NOT something you'd see in a school experiment!

But I guess it wasn't permanganate. I did a search and found this:

<font color="red">An exciting demonstration volcano can be made with a bit of ammonium dichromate. This is a fun science demonstration that takes almost no time at all to prepare. Place a small quantity (12 to 15 grams, or half an ounce) of Ammonium Dichromate powder on a clay tile. Form the powder into a cone shape. Dim the room lights, and light the top of the cone with a high heat source such as a propane torch. The ammonium dichromate will burn fiercely while producing large volumes of a grayish green ash. Small orange sparks will shoot upward a couple of inches. </font color>

This describes our experiment exactly, except for the use of the magnesium ribbon for the heat source. The ribbon was ignited by a Bunsen burner. I suppose this was to keep our hand away from those orange sparks...

[Pat]

Blue, I guess the demo of thermite I saw in school predated the hightened litigation and liability sensitivity that has overwhelmed common sense. I also saw people hold liquid mercurn in their hands and rub pennies with it to make them look shiny. You don't see a lot of that in schools today.

The Potassiouin permanganate and glycerine (like the glycerine in cosmetics NOT NITRO GLYCERINE) volcano is a tad more exciting than the one you describe but not so much as to be prohibitively dangerous. maybe there is a way to combine them and get both orange and purple sparks.

With the proper refractory materials such as a ceramic cone to contain the thermite and fire brick to stop the "China syndrome" it can be safely demonstrated but should be viewed from a little distance not right in yoiur face.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[BlueRidge]

<font color="blue"> I also saw people hold liquid mercurn in their hands and rub pennies with it to make them look shiny. You don't see a lot of that in schools today. </font color>


A few months back I read of a school - the WHOLE SKOOL - being evacuated because someone dropped a mercury thermometer in a chemistry classroom.

No, I'm not kidding, and yes, I know how to spell school. I though I'd adust it this time to reflect the intelligence of the administration. [img]/forums/images/icons/mad.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Blue, In a way the reaction to a broken thermometer seems potentially extreme but from other standpoints it doesn't seem so extreme. Some facts: Mercury vapor is highly toxic and constitutes a very dangerous hazard, much worse than touching it with your hand (still not recommended.) The HVAC system of the school may not have been zoned such that the single room could be shut down so potentially the threat could have been distributed throughout a building (probably not throughout a large campus.)

The clincher is that probably no one could quantify the danger and so they erred on the side of safety, likely with an eye toward limiting liability and cross section of exposure to litigation. If over the tenure of any exposed student, ANY SYMPTOMS remotely related to anything resembling heavy metal poisoning in general or mercury exposure in specific could have started a wave of litigation potentially bankrupting the school. There are parents who would have looked at this as an opportunity to "HIT THE LOTTERY" and not have to wait for Ed McMahon to show up.

The vapor pressure of mercury is such that it evaporates at normal room temperatures (unusual for a metal) forming significant vapor at normal room temperatures.

I had never heard of a school being evacuated due to a thermometer being broken but had heard of a school lab with wooden floors being condemned after years of broken thermometers.

In one of my early freshman chem labs one of the students heated mercury over a Bunsen burner (or was it a Fisher?) anyway the lady PhD chemist teaching the course held an intense one on one counselling session with the culprit. I think one of the offers on the table was expulsion from the class with a recommendaton for expulsion from the university for a repeat offense.

Familiarity breeds contempt. Folks get used to certain actions and over time think anyone advocating a change is being too extreme. I recall when lead in paint was first a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE of note. Lots of folks went on and on about how they had been exposed to lead in paint for years and didn't have any body parts withering or falling off. Try to buy leaded paint now. Every paint can in my shop has lead paint warnings on it even if it is water based and lead free. (You might be about to scrape or sand an old leaded paint to prep it for a new coat of paint.)

I can recall when handling asbestos was as common as handlilng fiberglass batting. I never witnessed anyone dropping dead due to contact with it or breating in fibers. (Maybe I didn't watch long enough.)

The glass blower at the physics dept of San Diego State University really didn't like "doing" quartz and my LASER research required working with quartz for good UV transmission. When working quartz with glass blowing techniques, fibers of quartz end up in the air. They are very fine and float for quite a while. When inhaled they cause lung damage (silicosis) that is irreversible and NOT A GOOD THING. There is no cure except prevention. Lots of activities contribute to silicosis: sand blasting, desert dust storms, handling silica sand where you are exposed to its airborn dust, and so forth. Hey honey, I got this sand at work for free, now we can fill junior's sand box.

I'm not an alarmist nor an environmental radical. I am an optimistic realist, hoping for the best but dealing with realilty.

Oh, by the way... I once chewed up a mercury type glass fever thermometer but was able to spit out nearly all the glass and some of the mercury.

"I'm late, I'm late for a very important date!"

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[BlueRidge]

Extreme and stupid. Pat, the whole society has gone off its rocker on this. Mercury miners used to be routinely exposed to GALLONS of liquid mercury every day, with no ill effects. They periodically spent time in a sauna to steam the mercury out of their pores. Mortality data on them was no different than other miners. Mercury doesn't vaporize at room temperatures, and metallic mercury is virtually harmless, as is metallic lead. You have to WORK at making it a hazard.

You probably have some of it in a mild acid bath right now, in your mouth.

Just because you heard of a schoolroom being condemned doesn't mean it was a rational action.

It's no more rational than the current fad of ROUTINELY giving Hep-B vaccines to every baby. The probablilty of MEETING someone who has the disease (let alone actually being at risk for contracting it) is lower than the probability of an infection from a saline injection, even ignoring any possible complications from the vaccine itself.

It's not being prudent, it's just institutional stupidity.