Using potassium permanganate and septic systems

[GaryQWA]

Pat, I believe you don't understand this type equipment and the overall risk of a glass of pinkish water. There is no comparison to live bare wires or upturned nails etc..

The OP asked about buying a greensand filter, he doesn't have one.

I also believe that our society would be well served if we all were more "military" in our day to day risk management; USAF '60-'65 and the insurance industry for 6 yrs, Dad Army '42-'46. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

[Pat]

Right on Bob! OK kids, be sure to tell mommy if your teeth are brown in the morning and we will check with the doctor to see if there is anything to be done.

I wonder what a SAFE dose is? I wonder what a safe dose is when continued over time? I wonder how much you can have in your water and not notice. Folks get pretty casual about tap water. Who does colorimetry every time they run the tap?

OK, time for a serious comment... If I were a water quality expert and was comfortable managing my own small water treatment plant and had water quality issues that are routinely handled with PP (potassium permanganate), then I would probably use it until or unless there were a better way available.

I am not a water quality expert and would not feel really comfortable managing a PP water treatment setup without some training and would be evaluating alternatives before starting or indefinitely continuing a PP treatment system.

PP is a common treatment in professionally operated municipal water treatment systems. It is not inherently a BAD thing.

For some "light" reading on the topic of PP water treatment:

http://www.caruschem.com/pdf/Permang...FAQ%202004.pdf

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Gary, I believe you are right, I don't have experience on PP water treatment systems. In my immediate preceeding post I stated that I am NOT an expert on water quallity and would not be comfortable running such a system without training. I gave a URL where PP treatment is well addressed. I acknowledged that PP is a common treatment in municipal syatems.

I'm not trying to be an alarmist so much as an advocate for doing what is safe and avoid unneccessary risk.

Again, you are right, I do not know how pink for how long before you'd risk kidney and liver damage, different folks have different sensitivities to various chemicals. In my preceeding post I acknowledged this.

I defer to you in your experience and knowlege with water treatment but sometimes familiarity breeds contempt, i.e. what is a casual thing to you might require a bit of attention from me the neophyte before I would feel comfortable. Further I think if you were serious about advocating using a system that requires you to maintain military discipline with children regarding water usage then I'd be shopping for a different system.

I certainly agree that a little more discipline in most folks lives would be a good thing, just not sure this is an appropriate application. So you were never in the military, huh? Me neither, I was in USAF '63-'67. Do you recall the main difference between the boy scouts and the USAF? Boy Scouts are required to have adult leaders.

Too bad my previous post and your last one on this topic passed each other in cyberspace.

If anyone knew a fair fraction of what you know about water treatment then I would not be concerned with their managing a system but I just can't buy into military discipline applied to children as a neccessary component of a safe water system. I guess that is the only real difference of opinion I have with you. I concede to your superior knowlege and experience on any other point of this topic.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

Pat, I didn't see Bob's or your other post when I replied.

This has taken on a seriousness that I didn't note in your original question to me... I read the question as what I would do in a certain, and hypothetical, situation, not what I would tell anyone else to do or what I would advise them to do.

Originally I replied to the OP not to go with a greensand filter and why. That should show where I come from but... you have put up a link concerning feeding, or otherwise using PP, on continuous basis, not as a regenerate for a residential greensand filter which is immediately run to drain and not added to the water serving the building the equipment is installed in. That's entirely two different things. And reading that article, I saw no mention of liver etc. problems, where does that enter into this?

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

[Pat]

Gary, I have proven again conclusively my claim that I don't understand all this water system stuff, certainly not as well as a professional like you.

I did some search in EPA and other areas for the effects of PP and got stuff on MSDS sheets like gastric distress but more complete searching turned up liver and other problems. I don't know for sure but I think the difference was a one time exposure vs a long term, repetitive, exposure like drinking slightly contaminated water for a long time. You have to wade through a lot of stuff about breathing the dust which seems to be the majority of the information.

If you want the URL's and can't find them, let me know and I will try (no guarantee) to retrace my steps and get them for you.

Lets don't misunderstand our differences, which are pretty small. I have absolutley nothing to quible about anything you said on the water treatment topic... except when it came to including the need for "military discipline" applied to children in order to have a safe system.

I am experienced with man in the loop systems (of many types) that require a knowledgeable operator to continuously monitor a process to control it or to ensure continuing operation within established parameters. I would not have a system that required that from a child. Children just don't do the right thing all the time and it would be an accident waiting for an opportunity to happen. NOT an everyday happening to be sure but it would NOT allow me to be comfortable with the system.

From a liability and risk management point of view I would make sure anyone I sold, installed, or to whom I recommended such a system to while acting in a professional capacity signed some pretty clear statements regarding the responsibilities of the system owner/users and their acceptanc of all risk and liabilitiy. Alternatively (perhaps concurrently) I would carry a HUGE E&O policy that wouldn't be cancelled the first time they had to pay.

If either aunt Sarah or her retarded child from Podunk Hollow was not amenable to military discipline was hyper sensitive to PP and the system got just a tad out of whack and gave her a reaction, real or imagined, the nephew, your customer and big time personal injury attourney might decide to test the depths of your pockets and those of your insurance company.

Yeah, Gary, I AM a stuck record. I just can't get on board with depending on a child as a legitimate part of process control with potentially dangerous health issues. I don't think I am much more comfortable with aunt Sarah much less her retard.

I'm not saying I'm completely right or that you are wrong but we are not in agreement when it comes to our risk assessment regarding process control. We are entitled to our own assessment and are free to offer argument supporting same, and have. I'm sure neither of us has convinced the other so we can just agree to disagree on this one point and go on happily from there. I still admire and respect your technical scope regarding water stuff.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

Pat, I also allowed my 5 kids to ride bikes w/o a helmet, knee pads and such, and to ride in the back of the P/U truck. They ran around the neighborhood for hours w/o us knowing where they were; they were 4 girls and a boy. They sat in the truck/car while we ran into a store or did weekly grocery shopping, so did the dog. Shame on my wife and I. I also had an unlocked gun cabinet full of unlocked rifles and shotguns and their ammo. There was a BIG hunting knife in there too. My 11 year old grandson has his own gun and I'm giving him another .22; a semi-automatic at that. I've had my own guns since I was 13 or so.

I was raised the same way, and worse in some peoples' minds today, but Dad never had a gun cabinet. When I was 14 I was allowed to drive my grandmother's old Farmal tractor on 55 mph three lane US 11 to go to the store; about a 4 mile round trip.

So to each his/her own but I see serious problems with coddling and overprotecting kids while scaring them to death all but literally to the point they are today. They can not learn risk management of any degree while sitting in their bedrooms or family rooms on the cellphone, computer or Playstation.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

[Pat]

Gary, Please! I am NOT the enemy! Don't feel compelled to defend to me everything you do or have done that is at variance with someone somewhere in our screwed up PC world just because I disagree with you on one point.

I never had a bike helmet till I was over 40 and old farts shouldn't ride like young kids at the margin of control, off road, in the mountains without one because it isn't smart! Probably should have had knee and elbow pads too but I never had a real serious crash, just a little skin and blood.

I choose to not comment in detail about leaving kids alone in a car, hot weather or otherwise. Oh, well, there is always the Amber alert.

My father never had a gun cabinet nor do I. I got my first .22 (tube feed semi-auto) at age 6 but didn't fully control it till I was 12 as to coming and going on my own volition. I was expected to know how to behave. I also recall when I was 5-6 when I was at a neighbors house and a kid about 7-8 years old was showing off for the rest of the little kids. He loaded a 12 ga, cocked it, and put it to my head. I suppose you can walk across the street without looking either way and depend on luck and the kindness (and reflexes) of strangers to protect you but I don't think because it can or has been done without anyone getting hit that it is to be recommended.

I think, perhaps without realizing it, you are demonizing me. Maybe without realizing it you are trying to paint me as the advocate of everything that you don't like in our society or everything you are at variance with regarding all the liberal It-takes-a-village types. The shoe doesn't fit. Doesn't even begin to come close. Without realizing it you are nearly in violent agreement with me on many things but not the value or advisability of depending on children to do the right thing in a water treatment process control situation that has a potential for strong health consequences.

I don't advocate underage non-lisc driving because kids typically (even in our day) don't exercise mature judgment. I drove on public roads (with my dad beside me) and there was ZERO traffic on our section line from the time I was 12-13 and became a safer lisc teen driver because of it. He was a strict task master. I used to go to work with my dad in summertime because when we got off the public roads onto oilfield roads, I got to drive (his job required lots of driving off the public roads.)

I'm sure there are just zillions of other areas in which we are in virtual total agreement.

Anyway, you no doubt have an even longer laundry list of additional things you did different as a kid or with your own family that is at odds with current liberal philosophy and is also not appropriate to our discussion. Lets stick to the topic or consider it exhausted and not continue.

I really do think the only pertinent issue that is germane to the discussion is factors relating to whether or not we would feel comfortable with a process control system for a water treatment system that required military discipline on the part of children to be safely operated.

You claim that you do and I claim that I don't (feel comfortable with that arrangement.) OK that is that. What else is there to it? I think I have offered comments that would engender reasonable doubt as to whether it is worth the risk and you have pointed out that it is no big thing in comparison to the risks around which you grew up and raised your children under.

I think that taking a risk and getting by in a few instances is not a very good statistical sample on which to make a claim of safety. (see also crossing street without looking) There are two important facets of risk analysis: 1. likelihood of the event of interest happening and 2. the consequences if the event happens. Tornados aren't too likely, even at the geographic center of tornado alley the NWS severe weather dudes at Norman, OK analyzed their decades of stats and determined that any given residential structure near the center of tornado alley will receive significant tornadic damage (not just mussed up shingles and not necessarily totally wiped out but significant structural damage that could result in serious injury or death to an occupant) on the order of once per 4000 years. So likelihood is sort of low. BUT the consequences if the event happens can easily be death to all or part of a family. There are a loot of tornado shelters along tornado alley. Many have been here before PC was a term. How is this different from the water treatment scenario that we are beating to death?

The likelihood of a malfunction happening may be low but what are the consequences if it does? What if it malfunctions as much as it can for putting PP in your water (ignore the obvious chuckle) without an easily noticed color change? What are the long term effects of drinking PP contaminated water? Damage to the liver and other internal organs is what I read. It could go on for years undetected. What effect would it have on a growing child. I don't know but I wouldn't be so cavalier about finding out either. I think I would be testing my water after each time the system was recharged, worked on, or disturbed at the least but looking for a different system not requiring military discipline on the part of children, visitors, and guests would be more likely for me. Things haven't quite deteriorated to the point in our society where you are not free to take chances with your own family so you could do what you want at your house (somewhat but big bro is closing in.)

Given the way things have been going with child endangerment cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see your personal choices become more limited. Folks who leave a kid in the car while running into a store these days face prosecution and criminal penalties. Big brother is getting bigger.

In closing let me say again... I'm not the enemy. I just have a difference of opinion on one small facet of what you proposed. A much larger schism (dwarfs the grand canyon) is to be found between your stated risk acceptance for children and where society is currently and where it is headed.

Oh, Did I mention membership in the American Legion and NRA? I nearly teared up when I heard that Joseph Lieberman was voted out!

I also do not advocate a FEL bucket or pallet forks for handling round bales although I have used pallet forks and only nearly got killed just that one time (and then went straight to my Kubota dealer and bought a bale spike). I don’t give rides to kids in my FEL bucket either and you’ll find that a topic that will stir up some emotions over on TBN. Kids get killed doing it but some folks still choose to participate in it (I suppose because they haven’t PERSONALLY run over and killed a child YET.)

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

Pat, you asked me; Gary, If it were your own installaltion would you just monitor the color of the water hoping no other family member got a drink in the dark to delay the installation of a new system or would you change it out without waiting for it to fail?

I replied I'd use it until it quit doing the job. I don't sell greensand filters or PP and have no plans to do so. I also tell everyone thinking about buying a greensand filter to rethink the decision.

You are going on as if I've endangered someone, especially children; or that I would. I assure you I won't be having any more children in my home in any way, the last left the house in 1989. Plus I've never owned a greensand filter or any PP and will never have a need for one but if I did, I'd select another means to treat my water. So lets move on before I say something that gets you going for another 2-3 days.... [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates

[Pat]

Gary, Please! I am NOT the enemy! Don't feel compelled to tell me everything you do or have done that is at variance with someone somewhere in our screwed up PC world just because I disagree with you on one point.

I never had a bike helmet till I was over 40 and old farts shouldn't ride like young kids at the margin of control, off road, in the mountains without one because it isn't smart! Probably should have had knee and elbow pads too but I never had a real serious crash, just a little skin and blood.

I choose to not comment in detail about leaving kids alone in a car, hot weather or otherwise. Oh, well, there is always the Amber alert.

My father never had a gun cabinet nor do I. I got my first .22 (tube feed semi-auto) at age 6 but didn't fully control it till I was 12 as to coming and going on my own volition. I was expected to know how to behave. I also recall when I was 5-6 when I was at a neighbors house and a kid about 7-8 years old was showing off for the rest of the little kids. He loaded a 12 ga, cocked it, and put it to my head. I suppose you can walk across the street without looking either way and depend on luck and the kindness (and reflexes) of strangers to protect you but I don't think because it can or has been done without anyone getting hit that it is to be recommended.

I think, perhaps without realizing it, you are demonizing me. Maybe without realizing it you are trying to paint me as the advocate of everything that you don't like in our society or everything you are at variance with regarding all the liberal It-takes-a-village types. The shoe doesn't fit. Doesn't even begin to come close. Without realizing it you are nearly in violent agreement with me on many things but not the value or advisability of depending on children to do the right thing in a water treatment process control situation that has a potential for strong health consequences.

I don't advocate underage non-lisc driving because kids typically (even in our day) don't exercise mature judgment. I drove on public roads (with my dad beside me) and there was ZERO traffic on our section line from the time I was 12-13 and became a safer lisc teen driver because of it. He was a strict task master. I used to go to work with my dad in summertime because when we got off the public roads onto oilfield roads, I got to drive (his job required lots of driving off the public roads.)

I'm sure there are just zillions of other areas in which we are in virtual total agreement.

Anyway, you no doubt have an even longer laundry list of additional things you did different as a kid or with your own family that is at odds with current liberal philosophy and is also not appropriate to our discussion. Lets stick to the topic or consider it exhausted and not continue.

I really do think the only pertinent issue that is germane to the discussion is factors relating to whether or not we would feel comfortable with a process control system for a water treatment system that required military discipline on the part of children to be safely operated.

You claim that you do and I claim that I don't (feel comfortable with that arrangement.) OK that is that. What else is there to it? I think I have offered comments that would engender reasonable doubt as to whether it is worth the risk and you have pointed out that it is no big thing in comparison to the risks around which you grew up and raised your children under.

I think that taking a risk and getting by in a few instances is not a very good statistical sample on which to make a claim of safety. (see also crossing street without looking) There are two important facets of risk analysis: 1. likelihood of the event of interest happening and 2. the consequences if the event happens. Tornados aren't too likely, even at the geographic center of tornado alley the NWS severe weather dudes at Norman, OK analyzed their decades of stats and determined that any given residential structure near the center of tornado alley will receive significant tornadic damage (not just mussed up shingles and not necessarily totally wiped out but significant structural damage that could result in serious injury or death to an occupant) on the order of once per 4000 years. So likelihood is sort of low. BUT the consequences if the event happens can easily be death to all or part of a family. There are a loot of tornado shelters along tornado alley. Many have been here before PC was a term. How is this different from the water treatment scenario that we are beating to death?

The likelihood of a malfunction happening may be low but what are the consequences if it does? What if it malfunctions as much as it can for putting PP in your water (ignore the obvious chuckle) without an easily noticed color change? What are the long term effects of drinking PP contaminated water? Damage to the liver and other internal organs is what I read. It could go on for years undetected. What effect would it have on a growing child. I don't know but I wouldn't be so cavalier about finding out either. I think I would be testing my water after each time the system was recharged, worked on, or disturbed at the least but looking for a different system not requiring military discipline on the part of children, visitors, and guests would be more likely for me. Things haven't quite deteriorated to the point in our society where you are not free to take chances with your own family so you could do what you want at your house (somewhat but big bro is closing in.)

Given the way things have been going with child endangerment cases, I wouldn't be surprised to see your personal choices become more limited. Folks who leave a kid in the car while running into a store these days face prosecution and criminal penalties. Big brother is getting bigger.

In closing let me say again... I'm not the enemy. I just have a difference of opinion on one small facet of what you proposed. A much larger schism (dwarfs the grand canyon) is to be found between your stated risk acceptance for children and where society is currently and where it is headed.

Oh, Did I mention membership in the American Legion and NRA? I nearly teared up when I heard that Joseph Lieberman was voted out!

I also do not advocate a FEL bucket or pallet forks for handling round bales although I have used pallet forks and only nearly got killed just that one time (and then went straight to my Kubota dealer and bought a bale spike). I don’t give rides to kids in my FEL bucket either and you’ll find that a topic that will stir up some emotions over on TBN. Kids get killed doing it but some folks still choose to participate in it (I suppose because they haven’t PERSONALLY run over and killed a child YET.)

I am happy to "move on" and I don't have a grudge nor am I upset with you Gary. We have a different approach to a couple things but are much more alike than different.

It is not unusual that when communicating via this medium that comments get out of phase and at least one of us might get some confused, I know I did. It didn't help that my DSL went down twice because some contractor 30 miles away gut a cable and I know delayed or out of sequence responses are not the best.

[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

Really I don't think we are disagreing, and I am confused while I'm always easily confused. So no one is upset with the other, back to work.

Gary Slusser
Quality Water Associates