Anyone know about Solar Panels? We have been doing some research, seems they all will talk to ya until they hear you want to install them yourself. I guess we're looking for web sites with endless information before we buy.
thanks,
Mooey
Anyone know about Solar Panels? We have been doing some research, seems they all will talk to ya until they hear you want to install them yourself. I guess we're looking for web sites with endless information before we buy.
thanks,
Mooey
http://www.homepower.com/ is a good magazine for solar and other methods of making your own power...
You can download a free issue there as well.
You can buy the solar panels on ebay, as well as the inverters for converting the lower dc voltage from the panels up to 120 v ac for use in your house. Most of these systems are pretty simple from what I read:
Solar panels----->inverter---->house breaker box
You may have some batteries in there as well if you want some energy storage if you are off grid. If the house is tied to the grid you can use the grid for energy storage, pushing energy in when you have a surplus, drawing energy out when you are using more than the solar panels are producing.
Moey, You didn't mention in your bio or post what part of the world you are in, if you are just making an "emotional statement... GREEN, are intending to be off the grid 100%, or what.
If you dig through the suggested reading, "Home Power" you'll find their stuff well documented with good pix and drawings, schematics, parts lists, and supply sources. What you will not find is a single solar electric project that has ever (without heavy subsidies) been economically viable as an alterenative to the grid unless yoiu have to install a very long run to get the grid power to you. Said another way: There are only a few SPECIAL CASES where a solar electric installation will pay for itself.
If you have plenty $ and just want to do it cause it makes you feel good, go for it. At current costs and efficiencies PV is not a good deal compared to the grid. The mentioned magazine has had several writeups on Gorilla Installations (not approved by the utilty) done because it makes folks feel good or gives them a thrill to watch their meter spin backwards (albeit slowly) if they turn off most everything in the house.
I subscribed for years and never saw an installation added to a house already on the grid that would pay for itself.
I have significant PV experience having had a recreational property in a solar only development in Mexico (no utility available now and you sign a contract giving up your rights to connect in the future Everyone had PV (and generators for when the batts got behind.) I also did a solar roof on a motor home and on my slide-in pickup camper.
These RV projects DO MAKE SENSE, especially if you go where there is no commercial electricity like we do. In addition to the roof air on the camper I have an evaporative cooler powered by the PV. In the desert with the normal low RH if the sun shines enough to make it hot then the panels make enough amps to run the cooler. I get 12-14 amps at about 14 VDC and have about 330 AH storage in two batt banks. I run the sat TV, lights, radio, VCR, cooler, whatever. I could run the microwave if I'd put in a big enough inverter but that would cut down on my reserve storage pretty quickly. The cooler only draws 5-6 amps.
There is a wealth of solar info on the web. There are plenty of advertizers in the mentiioned magazine who make/sell PV and associated gear.
Got any specific questions? "Anyone know about Solar Panels?" is kinda broad.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Jim, Thanks for posting that link. They have some real practical and honest info without a lot of hucksterism.
The part that cuts to the chase for my way of thinking is the part where they say your electricity would have to cost 21 cents per KWH in order for a solar electric installatioin to break even in 20 years as compared to just buying off the grid. Of course just about no one pays that much (national average closer to 12 cents) so in most cases solar would never pay for itself.
There are, of course, other considerations besides simple economics. Take my choice of cars as an example. The shared family car is a Toyota Prius gas/electric hybrid which may or may not ever pay for its premium cost in gas savings (depends on just how far gas $ will rise) but I like using less foreign oil for several practical and emotional reasons.
If solar power blows your skirt up, give it a go, just don't kid yourself about saving money or even saving much fossil fuel given the heavy energy costs of manufacture of the solar panels. If you really want to actually do something ecologicaly sound grow your own firewood sustainably by planting the right fast growing species and cutting them for firewood. Choosing to limit family size would mean fewer little superconsumers of scarce resources and a serious reduction in your personal impact on the environment. There are a number of ways to have a more serious beneficial impact on the environment than a personal solar installation, just most of them aren't popular or flashy.
A properly dedsigned passive solar home incorporating superinsulation techniques will, over its lifecycle, do more for the environment and your pocketbook than a solar installation ever will.
I am not anti-solar, just anti-overhyped solar. I have way more solar panels than the national average. I have solar radios, solar fence chargers, solar battery chargers, solar power on my motorhome and camper. I have participated in solar powered emergency radio systems in the ham radio community (mountaintop repeaters and portable emergency communication centers.)
If tomorrow the efficiency of COTS solar installaltions was trippled or the price cut by 2/3, then later that day I'd be shopping for components to put in a solar installation as I have a pretty fair location for it.
I also think putting in your own personal "still" to make alcohol for your own motor fuel is not a good idea as you lack the "Economy of Scale" required to be competitive. Many things are possible but not neccessarily practical unless done in the aggregate. Why not refine your own aluminim and make your own freezer foil?
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
I agree that solar power does not make since unless it is the only way. My well is 100% solar well pump and two pressure pumps. The well was in long before I built the house and it was solar or windmill and I can do all the solar myself but would need a well guy to install the windmill. when I built the house we brought power 3/4 of a mile and it was still cheaper than trying to buy enough solar equipment to power my house. There are some diehard solar guys around here but to me they are just practicing to be miserable.
Jim, Your water pumping is an example of one of the best applications for solar power. There are getting to be a lot of third world applications of solar irrigation. When the sun shines the fields get watered. No batts, low maint, higher crop yields. No gasoline to be brought in to remote areas.
Down in Baja at our "solar only" recreational community there are a lot of generators running a lot more than you might otherwise think was normal. People underestimate the solar requirements and for whatever reason (sometimes $) they have too little solar generating capacity and end up supplementing it with a gasoline generator as a low cost alternative to sufficient solar. In recent times enforcement of "quiet rules" has began to run into problems for the folks who are not really solar enough. Solar is typically not capable of fulfilling all your battery charging needs. Sometimes in batt maint you need to put out a pretty heavy equalization charge. Solar provides a good day to day charging ability but there is more to battery bank maint than a trickle charge. (above comments relate to lead acid technology not NiCd or other variants)
So Jim, do you have an unpressurized storage tank of pretty good capacity?
At the "ranch" in Baja the nearest town has deep wells for their water plant to feed the town and tank trucks fill up there and sell the water out at our development. Some fill with RO water from any of several RO services in town and deliver RO water. I use the regular water and do my own RO. Wells of practical depth for an individual in our area there at best get brackish water and it is unusable.
So, our solar water pumping is at worst from underground storage tanks to the residential plumbing. Any good RV type pressure pump augmented with at least a small air backed blader type accumulator tank will do OK if sized properly. Some folks use multiple pumps and have the inside plumbing supply lines separated into zones each with its own pump. Stops the scalding-freezing shower problem but we never needed an elaborate system like that and we aren't into heavy irrigation trying to maintain a putting green lawn.
Practicing to be miserable. I love it! Maybe they missed their calling and should have been engineers on a diesel sub. You could get all the fussing with batteries you ever wanted.
[img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Pat [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]
"I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"
Pat I pump from the well into an 1800 gallon tank using just a wellsytem no batteries. I then have two of the Surflow pumps that pump into two 50 gallon pressure tanks. I use two pumps in parralel just get more water flow with the two pumps I get about 6 gallons a min if I need it. The pressure system has its on panels and batteries so it works at night. It has been flawless for over three years and I can do %100 of the work myself including pulling the pump from the well. I helped a neighbor install a simialar one and he is very pleased with that. Some of the well drillers have started to install them but they use a system where the well pump pumps into the pressure tank. I do not like that system at all and most people who use any amount of water are not pleased with them. I can easily pump 1000 gallons a day if I need to.
Pat,
I'm going to have to look more closely at the breakeven analysis that my solar guy gave to me. I think that it showed an original investment paid off in 7 years - at least with my particular deployment. It was counting things like state and federal rebates, but not things like cost of money and maintenance.
I myself extended the analysis by adding the maintenance and cost of money. The system appeared to perpetually break even. But THAT analysis assumed a fixed cost of electricity ... so I actually considered myself a bit ahead of the game.
'Perpetually' means that I spend $30k for the system, then by end of life I have approximately $30k to buy a new system.
That doesn't count the emotional savings. I feel better by producing my own electricity. And for me to achieve that same good feeling by other methods I'd have to spend a large sum of money on psychotherapy, or somewhat lesser amounts on one form or other of drug therapy.
Seriously though. I can't figure out how the solar people get away with these fancy-dancy analysis that show cost savings over time. When I look at them, they seem to have all the rigor of IRR analysis that I do at work. (With a few things missing here and there, that I can supplement.) But many people, like you, say that the financials never prove themselves.
Go figure!
Martin
I am betting that your solar guy is telling you that the batteries are goood for 15 years or some such. I say I got about 1000lbs of batteries lesss than 10 years old you can have for free if you come get them. Bring a fork lift.
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