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Thread: whole house water filter

  1. #21
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Gary, You may be missing an important part of the "filter" concept.

    The part I think you missed when claiming I would call a resin bed in an ion exchange unit a filter (which I would likely NOT DO by the way unless really pressed) is that filtration in the simplest most direct form is mechanical separation based on size. If the porosity of your filter medium is such that it mostly excludes "lumps" above a certain dimension then it "filters" out those lumps. RO "FILTERS", as you know, have a very fine porosity and can pass H2O) molecules but exclude sufficiently larger molecules and certainly will mechanically separate out most things appreciably larger than water molecules. It is not good practice to use a membrane in that manner and they typically have a prefilter to keep from plugging the membrane with sediment B U T a membrane is a filter and it works principally as a size discriminator not unlike a superfine mesh.

    We both know that resin beds and their ion exchange mechanism are NOT based on size discrimination. I suppose you could use a resin bed (charged or not) as a filter but it would take a fairly large chunk of stuff to be filtered out mechanically by the resin beads.

    A distiller is CLEARLY NOT A FILTER, at least not in the sense of mechanical separation as discussed above and in previous posts.

    In a broader sense you can define a filter as a device that separates entities based on some inherent difference(s) and in that broader sense a still is a filter and using this broader definition an ion exchange system with a resin bed is a filter too. Using this broader definition any device or process that discriminates or separates entities based on their inherent attributes is a filter. This holds in electronics, acoustics, optics, and on and on. Even when not couched solely in "water quality professional" approved terminology, I think most reasonable folks would agree to the use of the more restrictive definition of filtration as a mechanical process based on size.

    This leaves us with the question of what to call a canister containing a chemical that reacts with a supply stream of water and chemically alters it. These are sold as "filters."

    Gets difficult doesn't it? Common usage does not follow definite clear concise definitions.

    By the way, Gary, You don't need to put words in my mouth, I have no deficiency in that area. AND...

    Yes a RO filter/membrane can be disposed of so it is disposable if that matters.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  2. #22
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Gary,

    I wouldn't waste my breath. This guy would argue whether the sun comes up in the east or the west depending on what side of the bed you got up on. He reminds me a lot of Raucina!

    bob...

  3. #23
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Gee Speedy, Can't you tell the difference between an argument and a discussion?

    I have great respect for Gary's water knowledge and have taken advantage of his experience before. IF we discuss something and enjoy doing it, please don't characterize it as an argument. I don't think Gary or I have ever been upset in the least by any of our exchanges. Lets try to keep it that way between us as well.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  4. #24
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    Re: whole house water filter


    Gary knows his stuff. There is just a terminoly disscusion going on. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

    Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

  5. #25
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    Re: whole house water filter

    He still reminds me of Raucina!

  6. #26
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Pat, you win the debate although I will continue to call an RO a reverse osmosis system and explain all the parts using the correct names for each component to all the folks I speak to.

    Speedbump, yes Pat is an engineer and he can't help himself. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

  7. #27
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    Re: whole house water filter

    In an extension of "filtration" by physical size, that really covers a portion of filtration. What has been discussed is absorption whereby particles get 'clogged' in a filament and are not allowed to pass through. Most filters 'retain' what they separate from water.

    But there is also adsorption where the physical size has little consequence. Carbon filters are the best example with this. Elements in the water are 'attracted' to the carbon and stick to the surfaces, crevices, and edges of the carbon fines.

    There are other factors than particle size that determine effective filtration including water temperature, force on suspended particles, surface charges, pH, and the effects of time.

    Softener resins, although not designed to do so, can filter water down to around 20-40 microns. The resins are quite slippery and many particles can get through. But the one of the main purposes of backwashing is to clear out sediment from the well or broken water main. One of the primary reasons for resin fowling is the inability to rid the foreign matter from resins.

    I still have a hard time calling a membrane a filter but that is my hang-up, I guess. Rather than separating elements from water, they separate water from elements. Horse of a different color? A case of semantics.

    Andy Christensen

  8. #28
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Excellent, Andy. RO systems are frequently referred to as RO filters but...

    As you point out adsorption not absorbtion) is an accumulation of the "stuff" to be removed onto the surface of the adsorber so surface area and interstitial spaces are important and the process is definitely not pure and simple mechanical separation. I'm not so positive that at the scale of the effective "mesh" size of a membrane that the action is purely mechanical but simple explanations treat it so.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  9. #29
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Great shades of Raucina, I should have known. Your right he can't help himself. He should go look at the movie The Knack if he hasn't already.

    bob...

  10. #30
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    Re: whole house water filter

    Pat says: "... RO systems are frequently referred to as RO filters but... ".

    I average 3-6 emails per day 7 days a week and on a 9.5 hrs /day 6 days/week basis, I talk to an average of 1-6 prospective water treatment customers from across the US. Very few of them call an RO a "filter"; they call them a RO or an RO. And those folks are correct.

    AN RO membrane does not trap anything. The filters before the membrane do. The pre filters are mostly to protect the membrane from fouling although they and then the post filters improve the quality of the water an RO produces.

    Gary
    Quality Water Associates

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