Water powered pumps

[raykos]

Hello all,

I'm a newbie and like others, I'm interested in moving water from one place to another in a "green" way; yes, because I'm worried about our environment, but also because I'm cheap; hate large electric bills!

I just put in a small 18' diameter pond, which is fed by a 50' stream coming from a 4' waterfall; and the waterfall is supplied by an external pump, which, of course, takes it's water from the pond. It's nice, but it bugs me that I have to pay for electricity to run the pump. At the moment, I have no alternative...but Im looking!

In this forum, the 'Archimedes Screw' has been mentioned, along with ram pumps, windmills and the Savonius rotor; however, I haven't seen any mention of the 'WaterWheel' or the 'Belcher Coil'. So, just for information/resarch purposes I'm including a link that I thought was very interesting. Maybe somebody will use the link to come up with an idea of(after collecting rainwater), using the 'Belcher Coil' along with wind power, will be able to pump that water uphill(to a cistern, which will in turn feed a 4' waterfall)?

Also, as a proof to myself, I took an old garden hose reel rewinder, put it in a utility sink with some hose wound on it, and hand cranked it...and 'son-of-a-gun' it worked just like the 'Becher Coil'! I think what it's saying is water doesn't compress, air does, so with every turn, you take in water, air, compress the air, and repeat. Now, if there was just some way to hook it up to a windmill/waterwheel/Savonius rotor.....?

http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/eco/

Just a FIY,
Ray

[Pat]

Just one guys opinion... This is probably going to be a really small waterfall or one really REALLY big pumping operation.

Do you have a clue, just a WAG as to the GPM desired for the waterfall? How high is the waterfall to be? What is your mean wind velocity?

Pat

[raykos]

Hi Pat,

Thanks for the response.


"Do you have a clue, just a WAG as to the GPM desired for the waterfall? How high is the waterfall to be? What is your mean wind velocity?

As I've said, I already have the 4' high waterfall in place, and depending upon our mood we can regulate the GPM from the pump to the waterfall, allowing for a soft trickle to a rushing water sound. Besides, there are charts available that helped me choose the 'GPM' and the size of my pump.

Also, as I mentioned, I don't plan on pumping water to the waterfall with a non-electrical device. Instead, the waterfall would be fed by a cistern above it. And as far as the 'mean wind velocity', it depends. It depends on the month, time of day, jet stream, global warming, etc., and again I'm sure there are charts and graphs available to me for this area.

As to the cistern, I live at the bottom of a hill, so I could dig this cistern into the hill above the waterfall and the size of it would again "depend", depend upon how much time I have available, how much it would cost for material and/or on whatver else is available. The filling/emptying of this cistern would again depend upon "other variables", but even if I could use it instead of the pump periodically, that would be a start; I tend towards seeing the glass as half full.

Pat, as to my original post, my intention...
"So, just for information/resarch purposes I'm including a link that I thought was very interesting. Maybe somebody will use the link to come up with an idea of(after collecting rainwater).....". Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the concept behind forums was an exhcange of information? And, maybe that link could help somebody, or get somebody thinking along the lines of "hmmmm...I wonder if...". Or maybe, somebody else posting a "...here's an example..."

So, you're right, Pat; sometimes I don't "...have a clue.." and this is why I peruse different forums. For me, there are many times when I've come across some information that somebody has posted somewhere; that has lead me to an idea to solve a problem I've been working on. An example is at TBN:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/j...-vac-boot.html

So, again, Pat, thanks for responding, I appreciate it,
Ray

[Pat]

Don't get me wrong, Ray, I'd like to help you but help you what? I'm not picking on you, I'm trying to define the problem. It is tough to answer questions like, "how high is up?" or "How long is a roll of string?"

Answering unconstrained questions in a general sense could fill shelves with reams of response and not tell you anything actionable.

For example, you want water storage above the waterfall. You gonna dig a pond, install a tank build a cinder block box, or what? If you opt for cinder block, a reasonable approach if a pond isn't practical, then you will want to line it with a plastered on layer of Portland cement (Type S, I think, but confirm that with a pool builder) with marble dust instead of sand in the mortar. This gives a nice waterproof finish. Alternatively you can paint with something like UGL DryLock. I don't know the life expectancy of paint but thte cement and marble dust done right will outlast a long time.

Wind questions relate to whether or not a wind powered pump would be satisfactory but if consumption is not known there is no way to know if supply would be sufficient. With no idea of your needs it is hard to know what will satisfy them. A holding tank (cistern) is an excellent choice when using alternative energy (not grid electricity or ICE) to pump the water as the storage allows your instantaneous pump rate to be averaged over time to meet your average consumption. As yo are aware from your experience, a waterfall much larger than a trickle, if it runs a lot of the time, takes a lot of water.

Maybe your waterfall flow needs (volume or % duty cycle) are less than I envision but much of a flow for very long requires more water than I think you will pump with any of the wind powered methods mentioned so far. Of course if you have a truly enormous tank and are willing to pump into it for a loooooong time to enable a short period of waterfall operation then you should be able to succeed.

Re half full vs half empty... I think it is clear that the container to which you refer is twice as large as it needs to be and about 50% of the materials and energy required to make it were squandered. That plus the shipping costs and the assocciated petrochemical consumption related to shipping the oversized container are unconscionable in these days of GREEN sensitivity.

Please post pictures of the project site as it progresses forward from "before" toward "after."

Pat

[raykos]

Hi Pat,

Yes, you're right, some questions are like, "huh!?" When I ask my wife what size Christmas tree we should get, she responds with, "(...I don't care as long as it's big)", uh-huh, sure "big". And another well defined term she'll use when I ask her opinion about how something should look she'll say, ..."it really doesn't matter as long as it has 'pizz-zazz'". OK, I'm sure I can get a couple pounds of that at the local hardware store!


And yes, defining the problem, sometimes it is actually the toughest part of the project, and if you're working for/with another person(s), communication becomes an even bigger stumbling block!

Yes, I think you really would like to help and believe me, I do appreciate that; however when I first read your response, for some odd reason it got my hackles up! I'd guess my old English prof. would say I may have misinterpreted the tone of the response. I guess it's another example of what I call the human API(attitude, perspective, interpretation).

Anyhow, Pat, thanks for your interest; unfortunately, I think this pond/pumping project will be one of those continual "work in progress" projects, and the idea of moving water in a "Green" way will keep on perculating somewhere in my brain, and I'll keep on looking, until something comes along to trigger that magic "Ah-Ha!" moment. And, yes, as soon as the weather gets a little better, I think I probably will post some before and after pictures. When I was orginally putting the pond in, I really did a lot of web research looking for "how to" pictures with regard to pond building; and I was very thankful for them(a picture really is better than a thousand words)! So now it's my turn to think about posting some pictures. But, right now my better half has me starting to work on an addition to our house. She's an Artist, (a pretty good one actually), and wants a studio; as a matter of fact I posted another question regarding insulation in the "Home Building" forum on 12/08/07.

Nonetheless, as I mentioned, my original intent was to post a link that may prove to be beneficial to somebody in helping them to solve, or trigger an idea about moving water in a "Green" way. And, of course to find out if somebody already has come up with a solution or possible idea.

And, (sometimes I just can't help myself!), but,"...Re half full vs half empty...". Everything you say is absolutely true; however, that container does work! And who knows, maybe after a thirsty person finishes the drink he'll come up with a better idea for a situation dependent/better/cheaper container? In my opinion, it's always easier to improve on something that already exists, rather than trying to bring something entirely new into existance...but, we should never stop trying.


Ray

[Pat]

Ray, When you said, "In my opinion, it's always easier to improve on something that already exists, rather than trying to bring something entirely new into existance...but, we should never stop trying." you said a mouthful. Clean sheet of paper designs are tough.

When tasked to come up with a solution to xyz, I'd assemble some smart guys around a table in front of a board (black, green, or dry marker) and have at it. The single most productive thing was to get somebody (ANYBODY!) to give out with some kind of an idea no matter how ill formed, unlikely, or unmindful of reality. Once summarized and illustrated on the board for everyone to see there would be a never ending stream of beneficial suggestions to improve it. Often improve it until it would bear no resemblance to the original catalyzing idea.

Like computing roots by the Newtonian method of successive approximations, it just doesn't matter how far off the first guess is because you will rapidly converge on a solution that is close to the optimum irrespective of the starting point with no more than one additional iteration, if that.

The single toughest blank piece of paper design I ever did was my current house (Chronicled in the home building thread, Oklahoma Farm House.) I literally went through a stack of home plan books nearly 3 feet high without finding anything I liked well enough to enter into the computer drafting aid/house design tool to use as a starting point for improvement by successive approximation. I had a brainstorming session with myself, spewing out candidates and selected the front running variations, advancing the best of each "genetic line" a few generations, essentially applying Darwinism until at least one of the "critters" appealed to me and I refined it to get a plan.

I came away convinced architects who design custom homes do a lot of hard work across many disciplines and just might be earning their $.

Attached is what kept me off the streets, out of bars, and away from strange women for quite some time now.

Pat

[raykos]

Hi Pat,

Good ol' fashioned brainstorming,

"...The single most productive thing was to get somebody (ANYBODY!) to give out with some kind of an idea no matter how ill formed, unlikely, or unmindful of reality. "

I don't know how many times I've said to myself, to others, and yes, even to machines..."do SOMETHING, even if it's wrong!"

However, the hardest part of "brainstorming" is convincing the members that the prime reason for the session is the absolute objective of finding a solution/idea/direction/whatever, and not for evaluation, judgement, praise or criticism; however, when dealing with human beings, that's a tough thing to get across and convince them of. Makes me think that a lot of different forums on the web are, in a way, a new approach to "brainstorming".

As for your attachment...fantastic! The time you spend on it's design looks like it was time well spent. No wonder you can answer a lot of posts...bet you have some real neat places where you get to use a lot of great "toys". The only thing I might comment on(tongue in cheek) is color of the tractor...I'm partial to green! Oh-Oh, did I actually say that!?

Ray

[egon]

If you wish to move water in a "Green Way" go to the Empires of old and maybe stop over in Europe where the processes were developed in the long ago. They worked to! [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

The prairies had some pretty fair systems too. They can still be purchased today. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[CJDave]

[img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] You would be AMAZED at how much water a properly-sized windmill will pump at a low lift. For a waterfall you would need a surge pond for the windmill to pump into so that the reciprocating effect of the windmill pump would be dampened. Then it would be a matter of getting the largest bore cylinder pump that you can find, and off you go. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

[Pat]

Ray, I didn't know you were a die hard insurgent in the color wars!

I really don't care what color a tractor is myself. It is just a tool. There is a lot of left over misplaced mystique regarding JD and how it is somehow more American than "them danged foreign imports" and somehow is just better in some inexplicable way. Balderdash! There are lots of good brands of tractors. Most of what JD sells is no more American than my Kubota.

I recently went to a farm auction where the auctioneer played up to the "ignorant country folk's JD misconceptions" and really went on and on to point out the items that were JD branded. One was a child's tricycle cum tractor and another was a low end riding lawn mower. It sort of tickled my funny bone.

Ahh, brainstorming. The single most difficult thing is to get a group into selfless egoless non judgmental mode where the ideas can flow without any restraint. This is aided through practice and a gentle handed mentoring or moderating to "police" the activity.

Ray, if you ever are plagued by insomnia, I can offer you a sure cure. Try to read the Oklahoma Farm House thread. That will put you to sleep.

I can honestly say that my overpriced too many frills girlie tractor with the excess luxury of cab and A/C and heat paid for itself a few times over in helping with the house project. It did nothing that a similarly sized and equipped tractor from any of a half dozen importers (we used to say makers) could supply.

Pat