what are my options?

[miss_thenorth]

JML755--basically this is what I think we are going to do. we will do pvc like you stated--We will run to the existing culvert so we dont have to worry about permits or the added expense. This seems logical since this is where the water naturally wants to go.

Since my original post, we have since had more rain and almost the entire paddock, barn and strip going from barn to pond flooded over. The previous RR land is fine. It has since been absorbed/evaporated, but the pond is still overflowed, and the paddock is now mostly ice. The drain culvert is located about 15 ft from pond (at the road)and this is where we will channel the water. We are also planning on digging the existing pond deeper. For the time being--we have a temporary pasture area sectioned off for the horses--poly posts and electric tape, but we need to do something about the land soon--according to the neighbours, in the spring- that same area will be a shallow lake. The house and shop will be fine--but the strip along the RR land will be bad. Right now--we have to wait for a guy to come over and give us an estimate. We will do all we can by ourselves--but i heard running an excavator to get the proper slope can be a tricky thing.....

Thanks all who contributed to this post. your knowledge and insight is invaluable.

Here's to a great 2008!!

[jml755]

Regarding the "trickiness" of the slope (if you do the pipe/ditch yourself): I did experience some undulations in a a ditch I dug with my backhoe. I would have water flowing nicely in some areas, then pooling in other areas. Using PVC pipe helped a lot in getting the water to flow smoothly and quickly, even during small rains. The key is to get your starting and ending elevations nailed down and then make sure you've got enough drop over the run to get at least 1/8" drop per foot. Then, work in 10" (length of pipe) or so sections. Start at the culvert end, working upstream. Using PVC pipe, you can just lay the pipe down and check your slope with a 4' level laid on top. (1/8" slope means there would be a 1/2" gap between the 4' level and the top of the pipe at the downstream end. If not, just re-excavate and adjust the pipe, adding sand under any gaps under the pipe , so it will not sag. Sags will create areas where debris and silt can collect. For the open areas, I used a 10' long 2x4 with the 4' level tie-wrapped to it to check the slope. Working in 10' sections means you can concentrate on getting one section perfect, then forget about as you move upstream.

If you don't have a transit, I'd rent one for a day or a few hours and record the existing elevations. Drive stakes into the ground along your drainage path and mark them, mark fence posts, side of barn, etc. as reference points. Use the bottom of the culvert as "0". This will give you a good idea on what "earth moving" you have to do. Or it will tell you if you are just too low to get water moving off your property. Does the water flow quickly through the culvert? What is it like on the other side of the road?

Dumping the excavated material from your pond deepening in your farthest pasture will also help. Is that your plan?

I checked my property last week and the area that am draining with PVC pipe was flooded, covering the mouth of the pipe. Popped open the 1st catch basin and small twigs/leaves had caught on the inlet lip of the catch basin causing a blockage. I cleared that and the water gushed through. I'm going to have to insall a mesh trap of some kind at the pipe inlet to keep the bigger stuff out. Also, a lot of silt was trapped in the bottom of the catch basin (i.e. it was doing its job).

Good luck with your project.

[Pat]

A solution that does not require long runs of drain pipe will give better long term satisfaction. Given the small area involved, if it were mine I'd rearrange the surface elevations to promote drainage toward the pond and roadside ditch.

Drain pipes tend to clog. Weirs or "filters" at the upstream end of drain pipes, installed to prevent debris from entering the pipe do protect the pipe but themselves become easily clogged. I don't like having to go out in the rain and or mud to to clean out debris to keep the pipes flowing.

A solution without drain pipes is more trouble and maint free.

Pat

[jml755]

Pat,
I agree. That's why I used a combination of pipe/ditch. Areas that I did not want to give up the surface area to a ditch, I ran the flow underneath. Simpler is better (to paraphrase Albert E.)

[Pat]

jml, True, the vast majority of the time. I have the down spouts from the front of the house plumbed into 4 inch PVC underground and go to 6 inch were they merge except for 2 of the down spouts. Both are a PITA, especially the one which inundates the sidewalk and keeps a green growth going all the time on the cement. It ended up this way because coordination was lost between the concrete and downspout guys and no pipe was placed under the sidewalk. Now I get to use a diamond saw to cut a swath through the sidewalk, bury a pipe and then dig up the burried drain line to conect this new pipe into it.

All this would have been trivial if done in the original work but now is a royal pain. You can't use slip fit connections because you can't move the PVC pipe that is buried. I have to use the neoprene rubber goodies with the stainless hose clamps.

The good news is that I get few leaves and other debris on the roof so I don't have a clogging problem in the drain pipe run which leads off to drain to daylight at a creek bank. The only problem I had was after a lot of rain a 2 ton truck sunk in the mud where they shouldn't have even been and crushed my 6 inch drain pipe with their skinny front tires. I had to use the neoprene goodies then also. I added more dirt to protect the pipe better and put a landscaping rock in the way to discourage erroneous impromptu maneuvers.

Pat

[miss_thenorth]

I would tend to agree with you on this one ,but......both ditches are on the other side of the minicipal roads... unless you are thinking about digging a ditch on our side of the property along the roads to meet up with the culvert onthe north corner?

BTW, we had a dumping of rain a few nights ago--about two of the three acres were covered in water. Two girlfriends came over and we got out there with shovels and started digging trenches to the culvert. this moved ALOT of water.

Spring hasn't even come yet--so I think we might have to move he horses temporaarily then until this mess is cleaned up. With it being this wet--we probably won't be able to get any machinery in there for a while...

[Pat]

Hmmm, in the picture it looked like there was a concavity parallel to the road on your side of the road. Does it drain? If it does, drain our water to it.

Of course, life is what happens while you are making other plans. I sure don't think I would wait for spring to at least get some temporary ditches in place to reduce the problem.

Pat

[jml755]

miss_thenorth,
Yeah, we had a lot of rain here too (Detroit area) and I was wondering how your place was holding up. Plus, 8"-10" of snow followed by 50+F deg weather didn't help. You mention that you moved a lot of water by digging trenches. That should give you a pretty good idea of what you need to do.

To repeat an earlier question: Does the water move quickly once it hits your side of the culvert crossing the road on your northeast corner? No matter what you do with trenches/ditches/pipes, the control elevation will be at that culvert. Have you taken any measurements?

Yes, I would keep the ditches to the perimeter of your property to avoid losing "usable" area. Whether one would help on the south and east side (along the roads) is debatable. You might not have enough drop to move the water (especially the south side) and they may just end up being "retention" areas, think of a long skinny pond that loses water only to evaporation, saturation. However, that may be an acceptable solution to you; just to get the water off of your "usable" area.

Concerning the horses, a good mud puddle never stopped my horse from rolling. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Got to be careful about sucking off a shoe though (if they're shod) We're fortunate that the place where we board our horse has a couple of indoor arenas, so mddy days don't totally prevent exercise. I've put a small indoor arena (60x120 or so) in our plans for our retirement place.

Speaking of horses, ours got a puncture wound on his leg last week. (Second time this has happened) Wife has been giving him antibiotics, cleaning it out. She called the vet yesterday, more antibiotics ($$) Checked his stall for nails, need to walk the turnout paddock as well.

[miss_thenorth]

Ah yes--- the measurements....and the survey says!!! ...

the road where the culvert is ( that our dirveways go to)440.93 +42.62 for the RR land.

Other road--481.77 +46.56 for the RR land.

Does that help? right now there's someone out doing locates around the whole perimeter.

We didn't have a whole lot of snow--just rain.

The water was everywhere--but it was not reaching the culvert--that is where my GF's and I dug the trenches--from the overflowed pond to the catchbasin of the culvert. Once that was done--most of the water drained within a couple of hours. there is stil standing water in the paddock, at the barn-going up about 10-15 feet towards the house, and then a huge area where thepond is still overflowed. the water is not moving much anymore. I will have to get back out there with the shovel to connect the low lying areas together--but my back hurts!!-- and the wind is unbelievable.

the horses don't have shoes, and their feet still look good. The PH perch goes out and trods through the muck and water, but the morgan thoroughbred is liking the barn alot lately, which just means more shovelling for me--the stall this time.

I hope your horse recovers well. Nothing worse than a lame horse. Its surprising what they can get into. Right now--we are just keeping a close eye on their hooves/legs to make sure they don't get anything (thrush, frog rot etc) from being in wet muck so much.

As I am out there looking at things, I'm wondering if it might not be better to dig ditches around the perimeter, going under the driveways-to the culvert. And then dig trenches from the paddock to the ditch. Or like you said it might just stand there, but at least it willl be offf of the area we need to use. I will run it by dh when he wakes up (night shift)

Again, thanks alot for all your help.

[jml755]

miss_thenorth,
OK, if you want water to move toward the culvert from approximately 480' away (given your dimensions) , a 1/8" slope per foot would means you'll be 60" higher at the beginning of the trench/pipe/ditch. Hard to tell from the pix if you've got that kind of drop to work with. A 1/16" slope would be a 30" differential in height.

Whatever you decide to do, I'd take plenty of pictures NOW (or whenever it floods again) with a sketch and dimensions of your problem areas. That way, when it's nice and dry and sunny and much more amenable to moving dirt, laying pipe, etc. you'll have some reference of the areas needing attention.

I can't stress enough how handy it will be to know the elevations of areas on your property relative to the culvert bottom in forming any kind of permanent solution. Good luck and keep posting with updates. Your solution may end up helping one of us.