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Thread: Got the gen set, no outage.

  1. #11
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    Dave, Thanks for bringing up the delayed restart. I'm sure there are lots of folks who wouldn't think of it.

    My thoughts exactly on the combo welder generator. They are good for running tools when not welding but not what I would prefer or recommend for domestic electrical backup.

    Dave, think HUGE flywheel on the 4 stroke. Decades back I had a three cylinder two stroke Suzuki so have an appreciation for rapid throttle response. With a cylinder firing every 120 degrees of crank rotation, you got pretty rapid response.

    I can tell you are of the mindset into which your experience molded you, a case of every job looking like a nail to a man whose only tool is a hammer. As much as I appreciate diesels and think something like a 3-71 would make a sweet modestly sized diesel genset, the requirements (IMHO) for a domestic standby genset strongly recommend propane. Long storage with no fuel contamination or degradation. Relatively benign periodic short run exercising. Absolutely minimal maint.

    Not every household has a professional standby generator tech who may revel in all the little issues of the care and feeding of the diesel genset in a repetitive short run scenario. It isn't that I can't handle the requirements of a diesel standby generator in this class of service, I just don't want to and luckily there are a number of propane alternatives, including gasoline conversions. A propane burning ICE, as you know, has very clean oil and little or no acidic contamination from short runs whereas diesels on the other hand really trash their oil in short run situations and you get accelerated difficulties with bearings and such.

    If I were gearing up for a few long term outages, diesel would get much more of my interest but our typical situation is everything from blinks and sub minute outages through several minutes, a few hours or in extreme cases (so far in last 10 years) 3 days. While not so far away there are still folks in the dark or in shelters but we haven't had to suffer such long outages. Half of the closest town was out for a couple days and a friend a half mile away on a different utility was out for a day.

    We are on a "main line" so when our power goes out it is a high pri to get it going as LOTS OF FOLKS are down. If you are unlucky to be near the end of the distribution chain and have a local disruption you are in for a long wait as the crews will put in their effort to get the main lines going first as they effect many more folks. A 2-3 family outage is not high pri compared to hundreds or thousands. The outages for which we need a genset are typically only a few hours at most and rarely a few days. A portable gasoline genset would git 'er done, I just want a bit more luxury for my wife and to cover the case where we aren't home when an outage happens as well as it makes things easier for me.

    Heating the home during an outage isn't a big deal as we have 3 little gas log parlor stoves and a big gas log fireplace which do not require an external electrical supply as they all have piezoelectric ignition, with self generating safety pilots for thermostatic control. IF we are home, we will have heat. If we are away with the T'stats set down low rather than off to keep pipes from freezing, then automatic start and changeover would be a good thing. Not having to toss out the contents of the refrigerators and freezer would be a good thing too. If it were not for the hassle of the clean up I'd just ignore them as the generator to protect them and the frequency of the needed protection would make taking the chance without a genset would be a viable alternative. This ignores frozen pipes because I could leave some gas logs going with the t'stats turned down.

    Of course if you are home, after survival and a modicum of comfort is assured then it doesn't take long before you want your LUXURY back so a genset is not so extravagant and unneeded as some think in our situation.

    Oh about the delay. I'd be happy to let the genset delay for 5 min befoer kicking on or even longer if I am away from home.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  2. #12
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Yes, those huge flywheels and the rotating mass of the generator rotor are both key to keeping RPM as near constant as possible. With Diesels, turbo lag is definitely a problem when huge loads are brought on all at once. Staging helps with that problem. For home use, there IS no viable alternative to propane in my book. There is a nice TRI-FUEL unit in Northern Tool Catalog that is 13.5 KW and would be perfect for our setup here. It sells for about 3,000 razz-buckniks, a good price, actually. The ONLY thing is, .... the engine runs at 3600, and I would really like to hold out for a slow speed chucker; a four-pole unit that runs 1800. Toys-Is-Us has a store near Silicon Valley in the South Bay Area of CA, and it's one of those deals where somebody else takes care of the generator maintenance. To the store mgmt, it is out of sight and out of mind. A few years ago, the thing went into it's usual weekly freshening run and STAYED ON for like two weeks; running along at high idle. Of course with no load, the fuel lasted almost forever and it was finally discovered when someone asked about the noise. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] PROPANE is the way to go, but bi-fuel or even tri-fuel is even better. [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Yeah, Pat, you've definitely got my number, .... if I had my way I'd have a big, squeaky clean, engine room below decks with a 1200 RPM, in-line, Waukesha naturally-aspirated diesel chucker sitting there direct coupled to a Westinghouse six-pole 150 KW generator. Basement engine rooms are not a very good setup if you use gases, especially propane. So if I wanted to use propane I'd have a tight block bldg at ground level with the gen set in there. When we remodeled in '02, '03, and '04, I made sure to leave a good spot in the garage for the gen set to repose. It is real close to the man door that opens onto to the back dock and that spot on the dock is close to our source of propane. Our little set sits in the garage right now in the generator-designated spot, and we only have to roll it a few feet to the outside, fuel it up, stick the cord through the cat door, and connect to the cord that leads to the Emergency Power panel array. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  3. #13
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] Here is something that is kind of interesting, ..... [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] The Municipal Airport in Sacramento California is in fogville. When I say fog, we are talking pea soup here; as any California native knows. Of course to an airport, the navigation system is critical, so the power supply is backed up by generators. Their big worry is a car hitting an intersection pole in the fog somewhere and causing an outage just as a Bloogle Airlines jet locks onto the Glide Slope. So, ..... they run ON GENERATOR during periods of fog, the reasoning being that it protects them from an auto crash-caused outage, and if the gen set coughs up the crank, they can switch back in only one second where as going the other way; utility power to gen set; takes about five or six. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] In 1991, they had a little problem at the airport when they went to switch back to utility power. The big, solenoid-operated, vertical, sliding disconnect de-energized but DIDN'T DROP OUT. The system thought that since the switch was de-energized, well, it MUST have dropped out, but the contacts had welded in. When the system energized the Normal Power sliding switch, the twelve-cylinder Caterpillar gen set met the utility power head on and burned the entire power room to a crisp. it took 11+ hours to get going again and THAT was just for temporary. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  4. #14
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    All because no one worse cased the design and logic. Sense connections to report the actual position of the contactor instead of assuming de-energizing it GUARANTEED its position would have saved all the equipment and most of the hassle.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  5. #15
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] You know, when I saw that setup for the first time, my first thought was: "Hmmmm... this is unusual." I thought that because I had grown accustomed to seeing the contactors for Normal Power and Emergency Power linked together MECHANICALLY. Little did I know that just six months later it would blamo itself....... as in charcoalville, ....as in lots of burnt insulation and lots of scrap copper. [img]/forums/images/icons/frown.gif[/img] You are absolutely right, the worse case IS the design case, ....or should be. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  6. #16
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    You know how it goes, Dave. Some intern summer hire Jr EE major in college checked the logic and didn't find the problem. There are two entirely different mindsets for checking a schematic drawing to see if everything is accounted for in its "logic."

    1. The typical one is to assume good inputs to everything. If the right inputs occur does the system do the right thing?

    Unfortunately that just doesn't prevent the problem you relate.

    2. If some thing is wrong, what does the system do. Industrial robotics is another area where you don't ONLY CHECK to see if the robot does the right thing when it gets the right inputs but will it NOT do a wrong thing if it gets wrong inputs.

    I built a computer controlled automated microwave test and analysis system to be carried in an environmental enclosure in the back of a deuce at the NTC at Ft. Irwin. With the help of 2-3 techs I built the system but another outfit was going to program it. A front end pre-amp for a freg counter that goes above 22 GHz is quite expensive and if someone allowed a sig gen to "talk" directly into the preamp without proper attenuator setting during a self cal you'd make thousands of dollars worth of smoke in a fraction of a second. Then the programmers would blame the hardware guys (ME!)

    I designed a monitoring system that would latch up and keep red LED's lit showing an unallowed combination of switch positions so that even a temporary glitch in the order of controlling things would be clearly brought to everyones attention. The programers were oh so happy to see that system as it let them test their software with no power to some of the equipment and see if there were any oops conditions in any of their automated procedures.

    The point being that you have to think about system logic from both sides: if given the right inputs do you get the right output AND what happens if there are some bad inputs?

    Most likely someone glossed over and or never considered what might happen if an electromechanical device with two electrical states and two mechanical states malfunctioned and the mechanical state was unaffected by the electrical state.

    Some of us with a little more than just a trace of gray in our beards have probably experienced a relay stuck in the energized position.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  7. #17
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] One of the toughest aspects of handling large AMP loads is setting the jaw tension on large disconnect switches such that it will transfer current without heating up, but yet pull out when the need arises. SqD has the Bolt-Loc setup, and Pringle has their end-of-stroke tightening sequence, both take extremely astute hadling and adjusting. I have found lots and lots of mains with hot jaws, and always scheduled a re-shoot to see if the repair/adjustment that was performed was effective; there was no other way to tell without using Infrared. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  8. #18
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    Non contact IR thermometers are the cat's meow in quite a few areas of application. I have one with the red LED aiming thingy and I just love it.

    Sometimes I wish the cone it looked at was tighter but...

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

  9. #19
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] That is the beauty of the Videotherm Imaging camera, you can crank the lens down to where it only sees images above a certain temp and that saves lots of time as you sweep whole current carrying systems. When something catches your eye, you go back and focus more specifically on it and then get the non-contact thermometer on it to make sure it isn't just reflection. The camera I use is an ISI Model 94 with a 50MM germainium lens. It reports to a videotape recorder. one heck of a good camera, but kind of a dinosaur by today's standards. It was new in 1989. [img]/forums/images/icons/crazy.gif[/img] I have scanned A LOT of gear with it from underground hot water leaks to roof moisture intrusion, to refractory work, to boilers and transformers. [img]/forums/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img]
    CJDave

  10. #20
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    Re: Got the gen set, no outage.

    Dave, I could never justify any thermal image gear. I like to "play" with stuff like that but can't justify buying such expensive toys for which I have no real chance of deriving pay back.

    Oh well, there are limits, i guess.

    Pat
    "I'm not from your planet, monkey boy!"

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