Baker monitor frost free hydrant

[Pat]

Rich, Thanks for the kind words. Again, just think of anything I say that may be useful as a tax rebate.

I know what you mean, you installed the suckers 'cause you wanted them there. About the barrel... did you punch lots of holes in it to take advantage of the "AREA"? IF there were no holes or just holes in the bottom you may have created a tank to hold water and once filled it might not drain fast enough.

larger dry wells, preferably down hill form the hydrant, even if you have to plumb a drain line from the bottom of the hydrant are a good thing when you have drainage problems. Do not bring the dry well and its gravel too close to the surface. You don't want surface water getting into it and fillling it up too easily.

Also do not discount the deleterious effect of having too much hydrant up in the air. If you expose enough hydrant to the cold air it will chill the lower part of the hydrant and let the valve freeze. Just think the warmer temps below the frost line are in contact with just a little of the hydrant below the frost line and the rest of the length of the hydrant is on the other side of the ledger sheet trying to freeze the hydrant. You want the forces of the warm side to overcome the forces of the evil cold side and prevent the valve from freezing. Toward this end you want to bury deep and expose only a little above ground. Adding insulation, especially above ground will help conserve the little bit of heat available to the hydrant from contact with warmer dirt at the valve level. IT is rare that a "properly" installed hydrant will freeze up, especially if insulated.

Only in the most extreme cases should heater tape ever be needed. Heater tape is a great and wonderful thing but if the power goes down you will have yet more problems if you rely on it.

Oh, about being defective to freeze up.... not so sure about that. If they leak and the riser pipe stays full it could promote freezing but if the valves work OK and don't leak then they freeze when the valve part gets too cold. (see above discussion about evil forces of cold vs the warmth of mother earth) It is rare but possible that the adjustment on the rod controlling the valve is just right so it is good when not really cold but when very cold it contracts and causes a slow leak which overcomes the drain system eventually (even a 50 gal drum) and then freezes as water stands in the pipe above ground level.

Buried deep with not too much above ground or plenty insulation above ground or preferably both and they should not freeze if the valve is adjusted right.

Oh, why a tax rebate? I spent a great deal of my life in school, much of it in evening classes later on. The Viet Nam GI bill paid for some and later my then employer (Fed Gov/DoD) paid for both trips through grad school. So you and the other US taxpayers funded my degrees for which I am grateful. Thanks everyone! Putting a little back is the least I could do.

Pat

[RichZ]

Pat, yes I have holes in the drums throughout, but there IS a difference in elevation. I'll try the easy fix first, and insulate them, but I never thought about the elevation. The hydrants that are highest (by about 20 feet) ALWAYS drain well. It's the ones at the lowest part of my farm that freeze up.

[gardeningangel]

Well guys unfortunately I wished it was the elevation, this hydrant is the highest one on the line. It has to be the drain underground. I was hoping for a easy above ground fix. With it being 4 ft down and me 5 ft its not going to be easy, its in the isle of the customers and not very wide maybe 3to 4ft wide. That has to be the reason. I will try it next.... oh I hate digging. hahaha Thanks again guys.

[Pat]

Rich, The drum idea is fine but it needs to be downhill from the bottom of the hydrant.

Sometimes we lose sight of the physics behind something supposedly as simple as a frost free hydrant. Why should it be frost free? Only because it is installed with the bottom (valve location) below the frost line.

But what if it is really cold and the wind is blowing, can't the exposed upper end of the hydrant loose more heat than the little bit of the hydrant below the frost line can supply (borrowed from mother earth below the frost line) and wouldn't this freeze the water at the valve? Yes, that is often what happens.

Another problem is if the drain action is impaired and the vertical pipe does not drain quickly and completely. The water in it can freeze by being in contact with the pipe that is exposed to the low temps and winds.

Even with a 55 gal gravel filled drum to take the draining water, if it does not dissipate the drain water quickly enough or if it fills or partially fills from ground water it will not be conducive to proper drain down for the hydrant.

It seems frustrating and a lot of hassle but if the soil is not "perking" good enough and you want the hydrant to work, there are not many choices that will take yo to success. I don't prefer heater taps because of the power outage problem but when powered up it will prevent a freeze. Sometimes running electricity to the site is a big hassle in its own right. Proper draining, DEEP burial, and insulation above ground are key elements.

I have never seen a USDA (Forest Service) hydrant more than a foot above ground. I have no idea how much they bury but they don';t expose a lot of metal above ground. I have never seen one of theirs with insulation or heater tape nor have I ever encountered one that froze up.

Pat

[RichZ]

As usual, Pat, you're giving me a good idea. I think that as soon as we get a thaw, I'll wrap the exposed parts in pipe insulation, and hopefully that will help.

Thanks for the idea!!!

[Pat]

Rich, That may be all it takes to let the Forces of warmth and good overcome the evil forces of cold.

Yet another little tax rebate!

Pat