Well and softener problems

[77shovelhead]

Hello folks, I have been hiding on the out skirts and now it is time for some questions so I finally registered.
I am fixing up my folks old place (mobile home w/60 acres) and getting ready to move there. This place is 150 miles from where I live now and I only get up there about 30 days a year and usually on the weekends.
There are some problems with the well that I need to get taken care of.
The first thing is the well. Here is some info on the well.
Installed in 1998
6 casing and 450 ft deep.
Guaranteed for 1 year to produce a minimum of 1500 gal per day.
From what I understand, on the well papers, the casing is only 15 ft. the rest is rock and lime stone.
The pump is set at 300 ft. (Webtrol pump model 52S513T 5 amp, 230 volt)
Instead of a pressure tank there is a bladder (Webtrol TANK-E-LIMINATOR model 60TA5-1) about 36" from the top of casing, hanging from the pitless adapter.
Inside the mobile home is a water softener. (Fleck 5600 Econominder 32,000 grain)


About a year ago I noticed it felt like, while taking a shower, the soap was not washing off. Some weekends it was ok, other weekends it was not. This went on for about 6 months. I thought the softener was not working and disconnected it in June 2007. In August there was a lot of sediment coming from the kitchen faucet so I installed a filter (OMNIFILTER Model U25, series B) where the water softener was. After running the water about 30 minutes the filter was clogged and I had no water pressure. Upon pulling the well cap I noticed the bladder was leaking. It was at this time I noticed the pump was running continuously. The leak was, I assume, running down the wall of the well which washed lose partials of limestone into the water. I flipped the well breaker off and pulled the wires, to keep someone from turning it on till I fixed the leak. So the pump has been off since August of 2007.
Looking around for a replacement bladder I found that most people use tanks instead. In order to replace the bladder with a tank I will have do a lot of digging, plumbing and build a well house. In this area I would worry about the tank ( I do not want to put a tank inside )and pipes freezing when I am not there, which could be 2 or 3 months.

Now for some questions.
1 Are there advantages / disadvantages to the tank over the bladder?
2 I plan to use my front end loader to pull the bladder up enough to get to it. But how do I hold the pipe and pump from falling if I have the black plastic pipe, which I believe I do?
3 How much will 300 ft of 1 ï½¼ pipe, filled with water, and the pump weigh? My guess is about 300 pounds.
4 Was the softener causing the slimy feeling when taking a shower?
5 Does the softener tank ever need to be replaced?
6 Is there another type of softener that does not use salt?

This is enough questions for now and any help is appreciated.

[egon]

Please note the following information may not be considered professional and is for information only. [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

When pulling the pump do not use your tractor loader. Set up a tripod and use a chain hoist. A strap around the pipe should allow for a purchase point.

To hold the tubing in place one could use a pipe clamp supported by board's or some other such contrivance. Again straps properly wrapped and attached to an external hard point may work.

As to the softener the resin bed could easily have acted as a filter and it is channeled with any regenerative ability greatly reduced. If you can access the bed it can be mechanically broken up [air lancing will work well] and back flushed at a rate that removes sediment but not the resin. It may also be possible to remove and clean or replace the resin. There should be resin cleaners on the market.

One solution to the well house may be to dig down and install two sections of four foot diameter concrete casing. This should place you below the frost level and allow room for a pressure tank. The casing should be insulated on the upper parts and capped with a concrete cap made just for that purpose. Companies supplying manholes, catchbasins etc. will have these items. This type of contrivance does not have to be over the wellhead and would be best away from the well head. This would be considered a confined space and any entry should use the necessary safety procedures.

You may also wish to consider low pressure and run time shutdown switch as this is an unattended location for most of the time.

Another option may make use of a well driller to come out and access the situation and even put in a full casing. This may be the best option but of course more costly.

Egon [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[GaryQWA]

The slippery feeling of the water meant that the softener was working; there was less than 1 gpg of hardness in the water. Finding a softener there means the water is hard. Feeding a softener salt is much less expensive than living with hard water and all the hidden expenses of hard water like increased water heating bills, failure of water heaters, premature wear of all things washed in hard water and the increased detergent and cleaners that must be used and the wear on water using appliances and fixtures.

Reinstalling the softener would be a good idea. Sanitize it with a 1/4 cup of bleach in the 5 gallons of water in the brine tank and doing a manual regeneration. Add part of that 5 gasls of water to the water in the brine tank if there is any.

Depending on where you are, your drop pipe down the well may be galvanized. That length of PE pipe and the water and pump won't weigh 300 lbs.; less than 120 lbs. is my guess. The galvanized will be much heavier and may be in 21' sections that you must unscrew to get apart.

A C clamp won't work on PE, it would collapse the PE and probably damage it and it would slide.

Your backhoe is fine as long as you lift straight up. There is a large vice grip type clamp made for holding PE pipe. They are sold by pump and some plumbing supply houses for maybe $75. There is a Pipe Vice too, it sits on the casing and when the pipe starts going back down the well it grips it due to a tapered shape.

You're right about the leak flushing dirt into the water. And a disposable cartridge filter is not a good choice to filter a lot of visible dirt/sediment.

Build a shed/pump house and get a pressure tank for in it. A prebuilt shed from Lowe's etc. would work, just make it so a drilling rig or pump derrick truck has access to the well all around.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[77shovelhead]

Thank you for the replies. Building a well house will not be a problem, as long as I can insulate it enough to keep the pipes and tank from freezing. I like the idea of a below ground set up.
I will sanitize and regenerate the softener until I can reinvent the wheel so to speak. I was hoping to find a way around the softener and the well house.
My concern with weight is because I will raise the front end loader up, and use a chain hoist to pull the pipe. If the weight is under 500 pounds the hoist will handle it.
You guys have given me food for thought and I thank you.

[GaryQWA]

There are ways to do away with the pump house and tank. Go to
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4 and search for info on that, or post asking how to do it.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[speedbump]

You didn't mention where the water level in this well is. Remember at just over 1 gallon per minute, you don't have a lot of water to use before the level is at the pump and you run out. You can also damage a pump doing that.

I didn't understand the part about the bladder tank being above the Pitless Adapter. Can you elaborate?

bob...

[77shovelhead]

Instead of a pressure tank I have a tankless bladder. This setup is like this. At the bottom of the well is the pump connected to pipe going up approx 300 feet to a bladder that fits inside the well casing that is connected to the pitless adapter. I am not sure of the water level but as far as I know it has never run dry. The well is 450 feet deep and the pump is at 300 feet. That tells me that the pump could, if needed, be set lower into the well. I will try to attach a page on the tankless bladder.

I can not post the page because it is too big. The pitless adapter is on top of the bladder, not below it.

[jimbrown]

WOW I have never seen a well set up like that. A bladder inside a 6 in casing along with power and control wires safty rope ect. Or is possibly outside of the casing (even more confusing) The thought of that thing falling down into the well specially one that is not cased all the way down is rather disturbing. I simply can't imagine why one would be setup that way. But I don't know it all for sure. And I do not find any google hits for Webtrol.

[GaryQWA]

The pump may not be sized to be able to be set deeper in the well.

There are 2-3 different manufacturers of tank replacement type in the well tank eliminators. Here's one but it won't fit a 6" casing but they have a buryable model too.
www.pitlessunit.com There is another made in PA and it fits a 6" well, but I can't recall the name. The Driller magazine or the
www.ngwa.org National Groundwater Association (online) may have names.

Tank manufacturers make a model that can be buried.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[77shovelhead]

Jim, I wish it had a safety rope. The elec. wire go thru the center of this bladder.

I did a web search back when I first found I had a problem and found nothing on the TANK-E-LIMINATOR except on a web site for inventions and patents and they did not have pictures. I contacted Weber Industries and they gave me the name of their rep for my area. He turned out to be the fella that supplied the pump and other components in 1998. To replace the tank-e-liminator was about $600.00 to $700.00. He suggested I go with an above ground tank as a less expensive repair. I never had a problem with the original set up until the leak. Not bad, I guess, for a 9 year old bladder.
I have a 36 inch length of pipe that I welded a hook onto, that I will screw into the top pitless.
Then pull the bladder, pipe and pump up just enough to get to the fittings under the bladder. Somehow I need to hold this all from droping back down in the well. Then remove the bladder and install a piece of pipe the same length as the bladder, screw the pitless on to the replacement pipe and set this back into the casing. Then I will set up the conventional pressure tank, valves, gauge and fittings.